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Old 08-22-2016, 09:27 PM #33
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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Buying a car from a private seller? Traveling across the country? Buying a gun?
Read this article and you'll understand just how twisted civil forfeiture is.
Taken - The New Yorker
Wow what a read that was! Thanks for that man. I think the moral of the story is that you should never carry large sums of money around even for those reasons. The families in that article could have easily just used a credit card or a debit card, like I said there's no reason to carry such large sums of money. You can also write checks to people and if someone can't take checks or cards then you shouldnt be buying things from them.


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Old 08-22-2016, 11:03 PM #34
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
I build my own lasers for wood burning art, they are NOT for sale and for my personal use only, I don't even sell any art and I believe I am within the law, and burning wood in my basement I can just about guarantee no trouble, but if I attempted to do wood burning art at the public park I would be violating many other laws.

Public endangerment.
Public display without a permit.
Creating a hazardous condition.
etc......
Probably not, First it depends if there are local laws and how much of a spectacle you make of you activity. As for being illegal on a federal level I doubt it since this is a home built laser. Remember the FDA makes no prohibitions against what hobbyists do with there lasers and laws are written to tell us what we can't do not what we can do.
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:09 AM #35
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

You miss the point, I'm not talking about the FDA, I am talikin about the cop who walks up and says: SIR...PUT THAT ON THE GROUND NOW! YOU CAN'T DO THAT HERE!
If you argue he will find a law that you are breaking if he want's to, and if you want to take it to a jury trial, a home built class 4 laser is not what I want to face a prosecutor over.
Better to talk right and go away, pay a ticket if you must and at the worst surrender your toy.
Push it and you will find out how much freedom cost, starting with an expensive lawyer, without a lawyer you are hoping for a Constitutional judge.
So much of todays court system is about revenue.
First they stack half a dozen more charges on you, then if you get a jury the DA will talk about every laser related thing in recent history and paint you as a terrorist endangering children in public with a blinding weapon.

Do you know the safety protocol for operating a class 4 laser?
I believe it involves a locked door with a flashing red light outside with a sign that reads : WARNING Laser in use. Protective eyewear must be worn by all beyond this door when light is flashing.

Whatever the written protocol is the DA will have it in hand and you will be found guilty of something.
Reckless endangerment or creating a hazardous condition covers a lot of anything and in the case of a class 4 in public you can be found guilty of 1 or more of many other non laser related laws.

All I am saying is keep a low profile and don't talk yourself into believing you can wave the ting around in public without repercussions, it's just a matter of time and if that time comes do be obstinate with the popo, you can get charged with something.
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:22 AM #36
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
You miss the point, I'm not talking about the FDA, I am talikin about the cop who walks up and says: SIR...PUT THAT ON THE GROUND NOW! YOU CAN'T DO THAT HERE!
If you argue he will find a law that you are breaking if he want's to, and if you want to take it to a jury trial, a home built class 4 laser is not what I want to face a prosecutor over.
Better to talk right and go away, pay a ticket if you must and at the worst surrender your toy.
Push it and you will find out how much freedom cost, starting with an expensive lawyer, without a lawyer you are hoping for a Constitutional judge.
So much of todays court system is about revenue.
First they stack half a dozen more charges on you, then if you get a jury the DA will talk about every laser related thing in recent history and paint you as a terrorist endangering children in public with a blinding weapon.

Do you know the safety protocol for operating a class 4 laser?
I believe it involves a locked door with a flashing red light outside with a sign that reads : WARNING Laser in use. Protective eyewear must be worn by all beyond this door when light is flashing.

Whatever the written protocol is the DA will have it in hand and you will be found guilty of something.
Reckless endangerment or creating a hazardous condition covers a lot of anything and in the case of a class 4 in public you can be found guilty of 1 or more of many other non laser related laws.

All I am saying is keep a low profile and don't talk yourself into believing you can wave the ting around in public without repercussions, it's just a matter of time and if that time comes do be obstinate with the popo, you can get charged with something.
A long time ago I was at a park after hours near where I live testing the range of a laser on targets (high rises they were) at known distances. A cop pulls up and asks me what I was doing here. I explained. During our brief exchanged not once did he ask me about how I was using the laser. His concern was entirely on my being at the park after hours. My advice is for you to stop being so paranoid.
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:46 AM #37
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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A long time ago I was at a park after hours near where I live testing the range of a laser on targets (high rises they were) at known distances. A cop pulls up and asks me what I was doing here. I explained. During our brief exchanged not once did he ask me about how I was using the laser. His concern was entirely on my being at the park after hours. My advice is for you to stop being so paranoid.
Yeah a very important lesson I've learned is that parks close after sunset. Do not go to parks when its dark unless you want to see a police officer.
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Old 08-24-2016, 01:14 AM #38
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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A long time ago I was at a park after hours near where I live testing the range of a laser on targets (high rises they were) at known distances. A cop pulls up and asks me what I was doing here. I explained. During our brief exchanged not once did he ask me about how I was using the laser. His concern was entirely on my being at the park after hours. My advice is for you to stop being so paranoid.
Paranoid, are you joking?

You just said " A LONG TIME AGO " things have changed, 7 years ago a 5 watt laser for a few hundred dollars was a day dream.

Don't be a fool and don't bring bad attention to the hobby, you will likely get away with a lot, but pointing a multi watt laser at a building could land you in jail today.

If bad publicity keeps happening laws will get passed against using > 5mw lasers outside without a permit and prior permission.

At burning man the art cars shine lasers into the desert sky, and 2 years back a girl got blinded and lost most her sight in both eyes from a hand held laser, so no more hand held lasers are allowed at burning man.

Out in the middle of the desert you cant even point a HH laser around unless you are way out and alone, too much bad stuff keeps happening, if a cop sees you pointing a multi watt at a building you could lose it, get a ticket, or even get arrested, or maybe not, but be aware things have changed, this is not a long time ago.

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Old 08-24-2016, 01:33 AM #39
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

Someone just needs to make a laser religion and then the first amendment Donald Trumps them all Screw it I'm starting the religion of laser faith and it requires you to pray to god by shining a laser into the sky. (not at aircraft of course, gotta scan the sky first)

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Old 08-24-2016, 01:47 AM #40
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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Paranoid, are you joking?

You just said " A LONG TIME AGO " things have changed, 7 years ago a 5 watt laser for a few hundred dollars was a day dream.

Don't be a fool and don't bring bad attention to the hobby, you will likely get away with a lot, but pointing a multi watt laser at a building could land you in jail today.

If bad publicity keeps happening laws will get passed against using > 5mw lasers outside without a permit and prior permission.

At burning man the art cars shine lasers into the desert sky, and 2 years back a girl got blinded and lost most her sight in both eyes from a hand held laser, so no more hand held lasers are allowed at burning man.

Out in the middle of the desert you cant even point a HH laser around unless you are way out and alone, too much bad stuff keeps happening, if a cop sees you pointing a multi watt into the sky you could lose it, get a ticket, or even get arrested, maybe not, but be aware things have changed, this is not a long time ago.

I'm not against prudent use of a laser just bad information passed on to the uninformed. Which you are doing.

I heard about that incident. but did that incident outlaw laser usage in that state? No. What in the world does an incident at BM have to do with anything?

I am aware and have been for a long time.

Show me the the federal statute that states it is against the law for an individual to shine a laser into the sky. Keep in mind the rules that govern laser shows does not count because they are specifically directed to laser show businesses. It has to be a federal statute because the air space above is under federal jurisdiction. Take all the time you need to find it.

There's no law in my state making it unlawful to shine a laser at a building.
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Old 08-24-2016, 01:55 AM #41
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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Someone just needs to make a laser religion and then the first amendment Donald Trumps them all Screw it I'm starting the religion of laser faith and it requires you to pray to god by shining a laser into the sky. (not at aircraft of course, gotta scan the sky first)

You won't garner enough support to make the FAA stand down, you would be better off to keep a low profile.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can't point a laser into the sky if you live within 10 miles of an airport, now if that means every municipal and private airport then that's most everywhere, you also can not shine a laser at an aircraft or into the flight path of an aircraft, that leaves a lot open to interpretation, is that the immediate flight path or it's daily route?

But again, for any cop "creating a hazardous condition " will cover it as that is also open to a lot of interpretation.

Your skyward laser could distract auto traffic, that's creating a hazardous condition, and if anyone is watching your laser pointing then you are putting on a display, that requires a permit.
There is also intent to commit a crime, if it is thought that you intend to target aircraft, even if one is not present you can be charged with that.
Do what you want, but drawing attention may well draw yourself trouble.
If one jerk says you flashed him from your lens flair you can be charged.


http://laserpointersafety.com/rules-...1_CFR_10401011
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:37 AM #42
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can't point a laser into the sky if you live within 10 miles of an airport, now if that means every municipal and private airport then that's most everywhere, you also can not shine a laser at an aircraft or into the flight path of an aircraft, that leaves a lot open to interpretation, is that the immediate flight path or it's daily route?

But again, for any cop "creating a hazardous condition " will cover it as that is also open to a lot of interpretation.

Your skyward laser could distract auto traffic, that's creating a hazardous condition, and if anyone is watching your laser pointing then you are putting on a display, that requires a permit.
There is also intent to commit a crime, if it is thought that you intend to target aircraft, even if one is not present you can be charged with that.
Do what you want, but drawing attention may well draw yourself trouble.
If one jerk says you flashed him from your lens flair you can be charged.


Laser Pointer Safety - U.S. laws for lasers and pointers
I said show me the law. Your interpretation of the law serves no purpose.

P.S. What you said makes me seriously want to shutter my windows, pull down the blinds, turn off all the lights and hide down in the basement. ;-)

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Old 08-24-2016, 03:31 PM #43
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

The level of fear here is getting a little ridiculous imo. Why even be in the laser hobby if you can't responsibly have a little fun with lasers without looking over your shoulder like you're involved in some kind of 'terrorist plot'? Unless you're actively looking for trouble you really 'should' be fine most of the time. I haven't heard even one story yet of somebody getting in legal trouble just for harmlessly using a laser. Seems like they're always asking for trouble in every story out there.

It's getting to the point where I somewhat worry about the fear driving people away from the hobby. Some new guy shows up here asking about using a laser outside and hears "Omg don't do that ever! The police will track you down using drones! If an aircraft even sees a laser beam you'll generate an incident report! You can't use lasers within 10 miles of airport or anywhere that could be a flight path(the whole sky everywhere basically)!"

Guess what the new guy is gonna think? He's either gonna think we're all a bunch of paranoid conspiracy theorists and disregard our advice, or he'll just say "screw this" and not get involved in the laser hobby. I guess I'm just asking if we can tone the fear down a notch or two...
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Old 08-24-2016, 04:50 PM #44
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

5 watt hand held lasers require caution, if there's a child or a family pet on the other side of those bushes you are aiming into you need to be aware, you have to use caution, I'm sorry if you lose the childlike innocence of playing jedi knight and swirling it around with reckless abandon.

As far as what's legal and the state of public perception we all need to protect our hobby from bad press by being responsible, again I am sorry if your loss of childlike innocence saddens you, but I am not saying you can't enjoy, just that we all should be aware, and yes, the state of affairs is less than ideal, if I take my new multirotor out of it's box and fly it without registering it and affixing a sticker then I am technically breaking the law, a law with stiff penalties, a law written against protections against these prohibitions in the existing law.

To bury one's head in the sand is not a good course of action, being aware is the minimum, sorry that you cant play jedi with reckless abandon.

---edit---
The world is full of busy body A-holes, if you let everyone in the neighborhood know that you are the guy with the beams in your yard you invite trouble, some paranoid jerk may see your lens flare while driving by and panic, go running to his eye doctor and cause you trouble, it's better to be prepared and armed with knowledge.
If people who find it cumbersome to use caution decide to avoid the hobby then good, just go to youtube and watch the idiots do the stupid stuff that will get new laws passed.

---edit--- A lot of us point at stars and aim at the open starry sky, but avoid the top of the tree line, an airplane could come over the visible tree line and there you are pointing at a plane, and sorry, but there is no OOPS, just because you did not mean to will not save you, it is a big deal. I would rather at least give people the chance to avoid trouble by sharing knowledge, most of the time it's no problem, but do wear those safety shades because we don't get an OOPS when a 5 watt beam bounces into our eye, it's what we are dealing with. Just because people go to lasershows at the dance club and get scanned with dancing beams does not mean you can bounce one off a bathroom mirror, if I were new I would rather hear the warning than blind my eye.
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Old 08-24-2016, 05:14 PM #45
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
5 watt hand held lasers require caution, if there's a child or a family pet on the other side of those bushes you are aiming into you need to be aware, you have to use caution, I'm sorry if you lose the childlike innocence of playing jedi knight and swirling it around with reckless abandon.

As far as what's legal and the state of public perception we all need to protect our hobby from bad press by being responsible, again I am sorry if your loss of childlike innocence saddens you, but I am not saying you can't enjoy, just that we all should be aware, and yes, the state of affairs is less than ideal, if I take my new multirotor out of it's box and fly it without registering it and affixing a sticker then I am technically breaking the law, a law with stiff penalties, a law written against protections against these prohibitions in the existing law.

To bury one's head in the sand is not a good course of action, being aware is the minimum, sorry that you cant play jedi with reckless abandon.

---edit---
The world is full of busy body A-holes, if you let everyone in the neighborhood know that you are the guy with the beams in your yard you invite trouble, some paranoid jerk may see your lens flare while driving by and panic, go running to his eye doctor and cause you trouble, it's better to be prepared and armed with knowledge.
If people who find it cumbersome to use caution decide to avoid the hobby then good, just go to youtube and watch the idiots do the stupid stuff that will get new laws passed.
Show us the law. Next time you see an idiot on YT comment to educate.
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Old 08-24-2016, 05:56 PM #46
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve001 View Post
Show us the law. Next time you see an idiot on YT comment to educate.
I believe he's referring to the 'creating a potentially hazardous situation' type of laws which serve as 'catch-all's' for the police. Even if you were being perfectly safe with a laser, a cop might be able to claim you were creating a dangerous situation by distraction alone. IE he could claim that the mere sight of your laser beam going to the sky might distract drivers or other passerby in the neighborhood and create a potential hazard. "what if a driver was distracted looking up at the beam and ran over a cyclist" or something like that.

Personally I consider such a line of thinking borderline paranoid, as cops could potentially get you for almost anything according to the above. By the same logic they could arrest a girl for dressing in a slutty fashion because she might distract passing cars. There is some truth to it though.
It really comes down to how much of a dick the cop wants to be. If you get officer dickhead then he might confiscate your laser. If you get a reasonable cop he might just let you off with a warning.

Technically, it's getting to the point where almost everything is illegal in our society. Many people commit daily felonies and misdemeanors without even realizing it. It's understandable to be paranoid, but we shouldn't all just quit living life and hide in the basement with foil on our heads either.

Be reasonably cautious with laser use and you're 'probably' not gonna get in a ton of trouble for it. Can I guarantee that? No, but I also cannot guarantee you won't get hit by a truck on your way to work. Unless you're actually doing something asinine, confiscation of your laser is probably the worst outcome anyway. That would suck, but unless it was an incredibly expensive laser it's not the end of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
5 watt hand held lasers require caution, if there's a child or a family pet on the other side of those bushes you are aiming into you need to be aware, you have to use caution, I'm sorry if you lose the childlike innocence of playing jedi knight and swirling it around with reckless abandon.

As far as what's legal and the state of public perception we all need to protect our hobby from bad press by being responsible, again I am sorry if your loss of childlike innocence saddens you, but I am not saying you can't enjoy, just that we all should be aware, and yes, the state of affairs is less than ideal, if I take my new multirotor out of it's box and fly it without registering it and affixing a sticker then I am technically breaking the law, a law with stiff penalties, a law written against protections against these prohibitions in the existing law.

To bury one's head in the sand is not a good course of action, being aware is the minimum, sorry that you cant play jedi with reckless abandon.

---edit---
The world is full of busy body A-holes, if you let everyone in the neighborhood know that you are the guy with the beams in your yard you invite trouble, some paranoid jerk may see your lens flare while driving by and panic, go running to his eye doctor and cause you trouble, it's better to be prepared and armed with knowledge.
If people who find it cumbersome to use caution decide to avoid the hobby then good, just go to youtube and watch the idiots do the stupid stuff that will get new laws passed.

---edit--- A lot of us point at stars and aim at the open starry sky, but avoid the top of the tree line, an airplane could come over the visible tree line and there you are pointing at a plane, and sorry, but there is no OOPS, just because you did not mean to will not save you, it is a big deal. I would rather at least give people the chance to avoid trouble by sharing knowledge, most of the time it's no problem, but do wear those safety shades because we don't get an OOPS when a 5 watt beam bounces into our eye, it's what we are dealing with. Just because people go to lasershows at the dance club and get scanned with dancing beams does not mean you can bounce one off a bathroom mirror, if I were new I would rather hear the warning than blind my eye.
Nobody is talking about 'playing jedi' and waving class IV lasers around the yard with reckless abandon(I guess people do that in youtube videos, but those guys are just morons). In my earlier post I specifically say not to aim lasers into neighboring yards, or onto the property of others who are close enough to track you down. Doing so definitely is inviting trouble.

The comment about the tree line is also correct. Only aim into the sky in areas that a plane cannot suddenly sneak into. Don't aim at a portion of the sky where nearby areas are blocked by trees/buildings/mountains etc.
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Last edited by Razako; 08-24-2016 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 08-24-2016, 06:33 PM #47
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

Well, I've done so many times, that is, pointed into God's sky with a laser pointer but I always look and listen first to make sure there are no airplanes to be seen or heard and never towards an airport, even if 25 miles away. One caution though, pointing low within 5 to 10 degrees of the horizon should be a no-no, you can't see airplanes coming in from a distance and when they are, they will be on the horizon. I've done it in the past, you can see some of my photo's of beam shots are probably within 10 degrees of the horizon, but I won't do it anymore, not after being surprised by an airplane coming in on the horizon and I had just been pointing in that direction a few minutes prior to seeing them. Probably best not to go below 45 degrees elevation, you should be able to see airplanes if they are at 45 degrees or higher angle above you.
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Last edited by Alaskan; 08-24-2016 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:23 PM #48
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Default Re: Laws about Being in Possession of a Class IV Laser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razako View Post
I believe he's referring to the 'creating a potentially hazardous situation' type of laws which serve as 'catch-all's' for the police. Even if you were being perfectly safe with a laser, a cop might be able to claim you were creating a dangerous situation by distraction alone. IE he could claim that the mere sight of your laser beam going to the sky might distract drivers or other passerby in the neighborhood and create a potential hazard. "what if a driver was distracted looking up at the beam and ran over a cyclist" or something like that.

Personally I consider such a line of thinking borderline paranoid, as cops could potentially get you for almost anything according to the above. By the same logic they could arrest a girl for dressing in a slutty fashion because she might distract passing cars. There is some truth to it though.
It really comes down to how much of a dick the cop wants to be. If you get officer dickhead then he might confiscate your laser. If you get a reasonable cop he might just let you off with a warning.

Technically, it's getting to the point where almost everything is illegal in our society. Many people commit daily felonies and misdemeanors without even realizing it. It's understandable to be paranoid, but we shouldn't all just quit living life and hide in the basement with foil on our heads either.

Be reasonably cautious with laser use and you're 'probably' not gonna get in a ton of trouble for it. Can I guarantee that? No, but I also cannot guarantee you won't get hit by a truck on your way to work. Unless you're actually doing something asinine, confiscation of your laser is probably the worst outcome anyway. That would suck, but unless it was an incredibly expensive laser it's not the end of the world.



Nobody is talking about 'playing jedi' and waving class IV lasers around the yard with reckless abandon(I guess people do that in youtube videos, but those guys are just morons). In my earlier post I specifically say not to aim lasers into neighboring yards, or onto the property of others who are close enough to track you down. Doing so definitely is inviting trouble.

The comment about the tree line is also correct. Only aim into the sky in areas that a plane cannot suddenly sneak into. Don't aim at a portion of the sky where nearby areas are blocked by trees/buildings/mountains etc.
Red cowboy got way off track with all of the what ifs. The point is there is no federal law prohibiting an individual pointing a laser of any class into the sky. That and only that was question in question. Everything else red cowboy said is superfluous to that question.
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