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Old 10-04-2010, 07:12 PM #65
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

If flying a plane was just the push of a button things would be more easy, but all the plane can do is fly a nice approach, anything besides this (including the difficult parts of the landing) is still the hard work of a pilot.


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Old 10-04-2010, 07:25 PM #66
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

^^^ Nope ... you still have to maintain your instrument scans and be able to take over in case of auto pilot failure. The autopilot will not lower the gear, lower the flaps, react to system failures(they only react by trying to maintain the programmed flight profile), communicate with ATC, watch for and react to external factors, or apply reverse thrust.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:21 PM #67
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

But it will do a go-around on most large passenger jets, right?

Then again, an aircrash is almost always due to multiple failures and problems, technical, human, environmental etc. I can imagine that a laser hit could be a contributing factor in an already bad situation, but i don't see how it would cause a crash on its own.

A birdstrike can also be a contributing factor (and those arent all that rare), yet i see noone pushing for legislation to outlaw birds.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:25 PM #68
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

I believe most airports are making great efforts to get rid of outlaw birds.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:48 PM #69
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
I believe most airports are making great efforts to get rid of outlaw birds.
Yes they go through great efferts to chase away birds, traind falcons, loud rock music, owl statues, fire works salutes, ear pearcing sound bursts, and they all seem to work! Briefly, very briefly, before the birds are back doing their bird thing again. Who whant to be a billion hier? come up with a solution to that problem!
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:06 PM #70
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

BEAMANN, for some reason or another, I have to honestly say I find it very difficult to believe that you are a licensed helicopter pilot. I also find that a firework salute would be much more dangerous around an airport then birds, or even lasers for that matter.

I do believe however, that shining lasers at aircraft is a serious problem. The problem is caused by the human element, NOT by the laser. Im not saying that we should outlaw humans, because that would be ridiculous. What I'm saying is that the argument needs to get around all the political bull crap and put into perspective.

Outlawing lasers would not solve any problems. In a way you can look at it like gun control. Some of the cities with the strictest gun control laws actually have the highest crime rates. They had a problem with gun violence and outlawed guns. Look where it got them.

The key factor here is that the criminal is always going to have a gun if thats what they want to use to wreak havoc upon innocent citizens. The law abiding citizen will not, because they are just that - law abiding.

My point here is that both the laser enthusiasts and pilots have the same feelings towards "laser attacks". Why not work together and have a joint discussion how how to solve the problem?

The problem here being irresponsible companies putting a very dangerous piece of equipment into uneducated hands. Or uneducated parents putting these lasers into their 13 year old kids hands. The problem is not the lasers. Its the operator.

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Old 10-05-2010, 11:46 PM #71
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

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Originally Posted by GreenSkyy87 View Post
BEAMANN, for some reason or another, I have to honestly say I find it very difficult to believe that you are a licensed helicopter pilot. I also find that a firework salute would be much more dangerous around an airport then birds, or even lasers for that matter.

I do believe however, that shining lasers at aircraft is a serious problem. The problem is caused by the human element, NOT by the laser. Im not saying that we should outlaw humans, because that would be ridiculous. What I'm saying is that the argument needs to get around all the political bull crap and put into perspective.

Outlawing lasers would not solve any problems. In a way you can look at it like gun control. Some of the cities with the strictest gun control laws actually have the highest crime rates. They had a problem with gun violence and outlawed guns. Look where it got them.

The key factor here is that the criminal is always going to have a gun if thats what they want to use to wreak havoc upon innocent citizens. The law abiding citizen will not, because they are just that - law abiding.

My point here is that both the laser enthusiasts and pilots have the same feelings towards "laser attacks". Why not work together and have a joint discussion how how to solve the problem?

The problem here being irresponsible companies putting a very dangerous piece of equipment into uneducated hands. Or uneducated parents putting these lasers into their 13 year old kids hands. The problem is not the lasers. Its the operator.
Look I only quoted what I have see on t.v. on the problems with birds, I did not make up the documentery on airports and birds (MODEREN MARVELS) I don't see where that gives doubt to my flight certificate and all my endorsements. I my self have never had a bird problem at any air port here in Phoenix, AZ you can look me up in the FAA AIR CREWMEN listing it's public info if you really need proof of my "helicopter drivers lic" or would you perfer a photograph of it, are you a pilot if so what is you rating? All this aside I agree with you 100%, any new laws won't change a thing! It will still continue just like all the other crimes.
And to let you know GREENSKYY 87 I was refering to fire crakers not arial bombs, general term(salutes) means a fire work divice that exsplodes this includs fire crakers, black cats,M80's,cherry bombs and even arial morter rounds just mencnen a few of them.

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Old 10-05-2010, 11:51 PM #72
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

Plenty of examples of dangers not being delt with i suppose. As far as the birds go, they make efforts to scare them away from airports, but passenger safety doesnt seem to allow for simply killing them. You can really blame the birds for loitering around the airport either, plenty of food in the grasslands, and secluded from traffic and most human activity.

Obviously most jet engines will happily gobble up a pigeon or two, but here in holland we get flocks of geese and swans too, sometimes requiring incoming aircraft to be put on waiting patterns until someone scares those birds off.

As far as the firearms argument goes: I agree with the concept of "If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns". People that see some kind of use in endangering air traffic using lasers will do so regardless of any ban on import of lasers, or resort to other means if lasers are no longer available.

The solution is in educating those that do not seek to do actual harm, making in clear that pointing lasers at aircraft can be factor in aviation safety. Don't take this over the top either - its a contributing factor, poiting a laser into the sky will not make it rain airliners!

I suppose most of the incidents are caused by pranksters who have little idea what they are actually doing, and not realizing they are causing danger at all. Those people should be treated as foolish, not as terrorists -those dont use laser pointers to down planes, ever.
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:15 AM #73
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

@ Benm, well said! Here in Phoenix Arizona once in a great while we'll on take off from the ramp, will suck a sparow or turkye vulture but rare but dose happen, and of corse no damage to the rotorcraft rotor systems. I do not want to try that with a flock of geese, That has been proven byond doubt that they can bring down a heavy.
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:21 AM #74
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

Some birds just grow really big, even in western climates. Things like geese, swans or storks are not that uncommon here. In reality they pose more of a danger to aviation tha lasers so far. A goose in the engine is something that would flame out a big jet engine, or completely destroy any prop blade on impact.

With laser pointer intereference a pilot has options, but with these birds in flock its not unthinkable to lose all propulsion on aircraft as big as an ATR42. Its a bit of a miracle those incidents dont happen more often than they do... then again, i've seen people push cows off the runway while appraoching small airports in asia, not a very comforting idea either ;p
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:18 AM #75
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

[QUOTE=GreenSkyy87;796419]BEAMANN, for some reason or another, I have to honestly say I find it very difficult to believe that you are a licensed helicopter pilot. I also find that a firework salute would be much more dangerous around an airport then birds, or even lasers for that matter.

I fail to see the reason for this comment. Are you calling BEAMANN a liar?

rather rude and presumptious of you.

I happened to meet him at SELEM and I asked what he did for a living. He showed me his Lic. with his photo on it and in every way he was honest and very polite-.I dont think he was ever rude to you or any one else.

I think an apoligy is in order.

They dont shoot fireworks at aircraft to scare away birds- that is a stupid comment.

Both of you are new here and we want you both to stay and enjoy the forum, so lets play nice--OK?
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:15 AM #76
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

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^^^ Nope ... you still have to maintain your instrument scans and be able to take over in case of auto pilot failure. The autopilot will not lower the gear, lower the flaps, react to system failures(they only react by trying to maintain the programmed flight profile), communicate with ATC, watch for and react to external factors, or apply reverse thrust.
so how often will an autopilot fail coupled with the odds of getting illuminated by a laser... seems pretty slim both will happen on the same flight...

the real question is, did you eat the chicken? or the fish?
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:06 AM #77
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

Actually autopilot is not required equipment ... if it is broken the flight can still be dispatched and hand flown. Southwest Airlines does not use autopilot they hand fly. If the weather is good, most pilots I know hand fly the approach. So chances are most of the planes being illuminated are not under AP control.

But like its been stated, accident happen when multiple low probability adverse conditions interact at the same time ... if one of them happens to be some dumb-ass illuminating the aircraft, guess who gets 100% of the blame in the media during the year it takes to conclude the NTSB investigation.

Whether the threat is real or perceived doesn't matter, the science doesn't matter ... its just a matter of time before the gov' does "something" about the "problem" just so they can say they did something about the problem. It will not do anything of course, except have negative effects on the responsible participants of this community.
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:58 AM #78
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

Jetliners aside, other aircraft do exist that get targeted.

Police/fire/tv/weather helicopters often do get 'illuminated', are far less stable than jets, often do not have autopilots, and fly lower to the ground than jets.

That said, and I agree it may matter the least here (heh):

1) I'm a pilot,
2) I'm saying that landing is not a button-press the majority of the time (especially in a crosswind or varied field conditions, even if your pitch/throttle (airspeed/sink rate) is electronically controlled),
3) I implore you: 400mW of RPL in the face while doing it would increase the difficulty and danger *significantly*, hand raised to block it or not.

So:

A) You can say I'm wrong, if you like.
B) I'm not trying to raise anyone's ire, but I will have to hold fast to the notion that such an assessment of "ease of defense" from illumination is incorrect.

Your mileage may vary, but hopefully your altitude won't too much.

(And just an addendum, to be sure it's mentioned in every one of my posts; I do not think lasers should be made illegal - if I did, I would not own as many as I do.)

But, as laser people, we should be setting the tone, not PPRuNe. We should have less tolerance for these incidents than pilots do. And we should be completely solid on that. (By 'we', I mean laser enthusiasts in general -- not limited to this forum. So I am not neccessarily picking on present company here.)

I just think every time someone makes a "Well the pilots should just..." argument, we shoot ourselves in the foot - not the bureaucrats.

Let me just add though, I do think media has a tendency to sensationalize and 'villainize' anything like this. So there is some "spin" involved. Especially when they try to describe the lasers used and the people using them.

I said I'd step off, so I will. And I apologize for returning to the thread; it's just an issue I have a hard time keeping quiet on, as I want things to work out for the best on both sides of the fence.
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780nm:OLIKE 120mW
685nm:18650 47mW
671nm:PGL3M 281mW DPSS ∙ PGL3C 278mW
655nm:LOC 254mW ∙ OLIKE 221mW ∙ Yob 320mW
638nm:Sanyo 40mW ∙ HL63133 200mW ∙ PGL3C 463mWpk ∙ ML520 700mW
633nm:JDS1145 HeNe 28mW ∙ JDS1145 HeNe 26mW
612nm:MG 05LOR151 HeNe 3mW ∙ REO LSTP 3mW
609nm:REO LHOR 1mW
604nm:REO LSTP 2mW
594nm:Rigel 3mW ∙ LG PGL3C 15mWpk ∙ Lasos 7512 3mW ∙ CNI MGL3 58mWpk
589nm:CNI PGL3C 106mW ∙ CNI PGL3C 85mW
561nm:CNI PGL3C 30mW(41pk)
556nm:CNI PGL3C 20mW(22pk)
544nm:JDS1675P HeNe 2mW ∙ REO LHGR 2mW ∙ Lasos 7786 2mW
532nm:PGL3C 150mW(180pk) ∙ PGL3C 578mWpk ∙ PLC 440mWpk
515nm:JDS 221420GL ArI 30mW
510nm:52mW DG#2 ∙ 50mW 26650 DG
488nm:Nlx DPSS 7mW ∙ JDS 2214 ArI 40mW ∙ JDS FCD488 DPSS 25mW
ML:MG 65A106025 ArI ML 115mW
476/480nm:Nichia Diode 28mW
473nm:PGL3A 45mW(80pk) ∙ PGL3C 110mWpk ∙ PGL3C 95mWpk ∙ RPLB-25 60mWpk
465nm:DTR NDB7676 2.03w
458nm:JDS 2214VL ArI 8mW ∙ JDS 2214VL ArI 12mW ∙ RHD Diode 1.7W
452nm:Osram SM 47mW
445nm:Yob 1410mW ∙ Polaris 156mW ∙ PGL3C 1200mW ∙ DTR-EHG 32650 2136mW
405nm:Yob 630mW ∙ Qfox 750mW ∙ JETL PLC 780mW

Last edited by aryntha; 10-06-2010 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:10 AM #79
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

Well said---Aryntha and as pilot and laser enthusist you should know of what you speakth. +rep for good sense.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:29 AM #80
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Default Re: Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aryntha View Post

But, as laser people, we should be setting the tone, not PPRuNe. We should have less tolerance for these incidents than pilots do. And we should be completely solid on that.
I agree 110% on that.. we should discourage this behavior always. I can see how people picking it apart and analyzing other parts of this problem could seem like people basically trying to direct blame elsewhere, but it is certain laser users/enthusiasts that are the problem, not the planes or the pilots. That's absolutely fact.
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