Just want to rant...

If you were driving at night and some goon started shining his green laser pointer at you from 500m away I think you'd definitely be "distracted" by the relatively bright source of light. Sure it's not going to cause you eye damage, but with your eyes adjusted to the dark, you not expecting the bright light, and the fact that you're commanding a fast moving vehicle makes things dangerous.

Now imagine you're a pilot in the cockpit of a 747 jet, preparing to land that 400 metric ton tube of metal and flesh at an ungodly 12:35 AM because of air traffic delays and a six-hour flight. The cockpit is dark, with only the light from your instruments and a dim light behind you to minimally light up the floor in the cabin. You even dim the lights in the passenger seating area, despite the fact that there is now a security door between you and them. This is all so that it is easier to see the runway lights that are merely tiny points of light in the distance. The reflection of the lights from the front of your jet are barely visible at this altitude.

And then some asshole with a laser pointer thinks it's funny to shine his laser into your cockpit.

"WHAT THE HELL?!!" you yell (your co-pilot isn't so eloquent) as the beam hits the windows and diffuses into a random speckled glare as the beam is swirled around erratically, like at a bad powerpoint presentation, completely throwing off your night vision. Your 40-years of experience allows you to land the plane without incident, but it could have possibly caused an accident in the hands of a less experienced pilot, or a different situation.

Personally, I hope the people who do shine lasers at aircraft do get drawn up on terrorism charges. Lasers should not be in the hands of (mental) children, especially when they can endanger many people.

Well I for one am not even distracted by the probably far more powerful headlights of oncoming cars at night (even if those dummy drivers don't dim then in time...)

You have a romantic idea of todays passenger planes. Their glass cockpits don't allow for night adapted eyes. Also, a 150mW greenie doesn't have the power to "glaringly light up the cockpit". Lastly, the laser artist will be below you. The windows in a cockpit provide for a view forward; there's rather limited downward visibility. All of this doesn't spell "clear and present danger".

Again I'd like to hear from someone who'd actually done the experiment of pointing a laser at you from a couple 100 meters away, so we'd have at least this very basic fact instead of just hysteria. After that, we can tackle the problem of hitting a moving target with it. Any takers? (I don't have a laser yet.)

What's next? Maybe we can bring terrorism charges against people who criticize the government?

dr-ebert, the point I was trying to make is that people shining lasers at planes, traffic, etc. may not be trying to bring down a plane. BUT, they are trying to "mess" with the pilot, and think "Hey, I wonder if he can see this!". If you were flying, would you want some kid messing with your pilot? I think not. These are also the kids that will shine them into random people's eyes to see if they get pissed. So while every laser shining incident may be different, the general idea still remains that it is stupid.

Also, if this has been going on this long, why don't they just coat the glass on airplanes to block 532nm? Even if it blocks most of it so the vision outside is not hindered that much, it would still be a good idea. But I haven't even heard of them thinking of doing that.

dr-ebert said:

Well I for one am not even distracted by the probably far more powerful headlights of oncoming cars at night (even if those dummy drivers don't dim then in time...)

You have a romantic idea of todays passenger planes. Their glass cockpits don't allow for night adapted eyes. Also, a 150mW greenie doesn't have the power to "glaringly light up the cockpit". Lastly, the laser artist will be below you. The windows in a cockpit provide for a view forward; there's rather limited downward visibility. All of this doesn't spell "clear and present danger".

Again I'd like to hear from someone who'd actually done the experiment of pointing a laser at you from a couple 100 meters away, so we'd have at least this very basic fact instead of just hysteria. After that, we can tackle the problem of hitting a moving target with it. Any takers? (I don't have a laser yet.)

What's next? Maybe we can bring terrorism charges against people who criticize the government?

Click to expand...

Hmmm... you sound to me to be an expert on this issue....  :

From what you have posted... you seem to be condoning the use of lasers
to shine into a plane's cockpit on final approach.... (because there is no danger.. IYO)

You say you don't own a laser yet....  let's hope you don't get one... as by your
posts I can see that you WILL use it to distract pilots since you seem
to think it is safe...

I agree that the experiment should be done... but until it actually is... I will use
the premise of "It IS Dangerous to do so"....

If you are right... no one will get hurt...

If we are right... then you will bring down a plane... :-/

Jerry

Sure, no doubt, they're grade-A jackasses. But people driving around in boom-cars or walking in public areas with their ghetto blasters going full steam are too. The question is, is the reaction (2yrs prison in the Australia case) adequate? Sometimes I say that stupidity should be a crime, but if that were truly the case, there probably wouldn't be enough people left over to guard them ;D

They don't coat the windows because nobody really worries about it. In fact it is a well established fact in psychology that extremely rare events are seen as far more dangerous than they are (lasers at planes, or plane accidents in general) while common dangers are grossly underrated by the public (car accidents, being overweight, in the US: guns).

If I were flying? I am (occasionally only unfortunately), in fact I'm a pilot (no, no 747, but G-102 ) I love flying.

lasersbee said:

From what you have posted... you seem to be condoning the use of lasers  to shine into a plane's cockpit on final approach....

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Please cite the passage where I do that.

lasersbee said:

You say you don't own a laser yet....  let's hope you don't get one... as by your posts I can see that you WILL use it to distract pilots since you seem
to think it is safe...

Click to expand...

Fortunately I can't be blamed for what you are thinking you'd be doing if you were in my place. Your statement says something about you... not about me. Maybe you should be guarded...

lasersbee said:

If we are right... then you will bring down a plane... :-/

Click to expand...

Didn't you read? It has been done, repeatedly, and NO plane was brought down.

Also refer back to my first post (#2 in this thread), and read that as well while you're at it. Consider this thread as a fact-finding mission, or an exercise in discussion. No need to see this as an action plan, right?

Well ebert, this rant wasn't called "Just want to rant to dr-ebert so he can negate everything that is said by any member." It boils down to stupid people end up ruining things for smarter people. The talk about whether or not it's dangerous aside, some people hope that when they do it, the plane crashes. And in almost every case, it doesn't. But that's a pretty ignorant and careless thought, is it not? So please professionally tell me if it does or doesn't matter if people shine them at planes. I would love to hear it from a professional

dr-ebert said:

[quote author=lasersbee link=1237513911/16#19 date=1237736051]From what you have posted... you seem to be condoning the use of lasers  to shine into a plane's cockpit on final approach....

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Please cite the passage where I do that.
[---pointing even a high-power laser ("burner") at someone hundreds of meters distant is a nuisance but definitely not dangerous]
[---a 150mW greenie doesn't have the power to "glaringly light up the cockpit"]

lasersbee said:

You say you don't own a laser yet....  let's hope you don't get one... as by your posts I can see that you WILL use it to distract pilots since you seem to think it is safe...

Click to expand...

Fortunately I can't be blamed for what you are thinking you'd be doing if you were in my place. Your statement says something about you... not about me. Maybe you should be guarded...
No one is blaming you for what I am thinking....I'm simply stating my opinion based on your posts...
I'm sorry if it is not what you wanted to hear... (Jerry)

lasersbee said:

If we are right... then you will bring down a plane... :-/

Click to expand...

Didn't you read? It has been done, repeatedly, and NO plane was brought down.

Also refer back to my first post (#2 in this thread), and read that as well while you're at it. Consider this thread as a fact-finding mission, or an exercise in discussion. No need to see this as an action plan, right?
It is obvious that I read your posts... So what you are saying is ... because it hasn't happened yet it is OK to shine Lasers into Cockpits of planes on final approach.. :-? (Jerry)
[/quote]
Hey ebert...
                 slice it anyway you want... that's just plain irresponsible to even point in that direction
of thought on this forum filled with younger impressionable and new members... In My Opinion...

Jerry

Thanks, laserbee. I see you realize that I was not trying to rant about EXACTLY how dangerous it is to do, but just how careless the action of doing it is (although in cases it can be dangerous.) No need for someone to try and prove the highly acclaimed dr-ebert wrong, and become the first person to kill a flight of people with a laser, right?

Ok, I see I'm not even remotely getting through. It's a pity but quite informative.

Just for the record, if I say something is not dangerous (with dangerous as in "terrorist activity", not as in "creeping up to the busdriver and shouting 'boo' in his ear", there's a difference), it does not mean I condone doing it. That's just your way of thinking showing again.

May you never encounter the dreaded "Why...?" question in your daily existence.

Lol. You sir, are like the psychology teacher that every single one of his students don't like because he think's his opinions on life are the absolute "right". May you never try to teach another person in your daily life.

dr-ebert said:

Well I for one am not even distracted by the probably far more powerful headlights of oncoming cars at night (even if those dummy drivers don't dim then in time...)

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Headlight beams, with few exceptions, are like laser beams.  There really is no comparison.

You have a romantic idea of todays passenger planes. Their glass cockpits don't allow for night adapted eyes. Also, a 150mW greenie doesn't have the power to "glaringly light up the cockpit". Lastly, the laser artist will be below you. The windows in a cockpit provide for a view forward; there's rather limited downward visibility. All of this doesn't spell "clear and present danger".

Click to expand...

It's almost amazing just how much misinformation the above paragraph alone contains.  Honestly, did you just pull all of that out of your ass?

Cockpits do indeed allow for night-adapted eyes, because night-vision is extremely important for piloting an aircraft at night (of course you knew that since you're a "pilot").  Maintaining this night vision is important, as it takes at least 30 minutes for complete dark adaptation (8-1-6.b.2 of the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual).  Therefore the lighting in the cockpit, as well as the design of the instruments are specially designed to be compatible with night vision.  Even the runway lights are designed to preserve night vision.  Here, take a nice look at this video depicting the view from the cockpit of a 747 at night.

Furthermore, the windows in a cockpit, while designed to provide mostly forward viewing, do indeed provide a view below the aircraft as well (not directly below).  The pilot definitely uses the view of the ground during takeoff and landing, where he is most likely to receive exposure due to a laser pointer.  

Have you ever seen the output of a 150mW laser pointer shining on a surface?  Its visible beam at night, extending to the clouds?  Obviously you have not.  I guess when you bullshit you like to bullshit big.  A 150mW green laser has MORE than has enough power to light up a cockpit, especially when the pilot's eyes are adapted to night vision, and 532nm being very close to the wavelength a human's eyes are most sensitive to (~550nm)--all at extreme distances.

Again I'd like to hear from someone who'd actually done the experiment of pointing a laser at you from a couple 100 meters away, so we'd have at least this very basic fact instead of just hysteria. After that, we can tackle the problem of hitting a moving target with it. Any takers? (I don't have a laser yet.)

Click to expand...

Here's a nice FAA study on The Effects of Laser Illumination on Operational and Visual Performance of Pilots During Final Approach.

"This study confirmed that the illumination of flight crewmembers with laser radiation [ch8805] 0.5 µW/cm2  is unacceptable in the LFZ. Provided the exposure limit established for the LFZ (i.e., 50 nW/cm2 ) is not exceeded, a sufficient margin of safety appears to exist for protecting pilots from accidental laser exposure during final approach."

Just for comparison, the Class IIIa (generic laser pointer) exposure limit (2.5mW/cm^2) is 5000 times greater than the unacceptable illumination limit above.

What's next? Maybe we can bring terrorism charges against people who criticize the government?

Click to expand...

Please refrain from straw man arguments.

Nice, badger. If dr-ebert could ever in his own life, view one of his own opinions as "not good", the world would be a better place. But I guess that's the Einstein complex for ya.

Lotus_Darkrose said:

Nice, badger. If dr-ebert could ever in his own life, view one of his own opinions as "not good", the world would be a better place. But I guess that's the Einstein complex for ya.

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ROFL... : : :.... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

dr-ebert said:

You have a romantic idea of todays passenger planes. Their glass cockpits don't allow for night adapted eyes. Also, a 150mW greenie doesn't have the power to "glaringly light up the cockpit". Lastly, the laser artist will be below you. The windows in a cockpit provide for a view forward; there's rather limited downward visibility. All of this doesn't spell "clear and present danger".

Click to expand...

Actually dr-ebert I can shoot down that notion right now:

I am an airline pilot and my aircraft just happens to have a glass cockpit and every CRT/LCD display - all 10 of them - has their brightness controlled via a rheostat that allows settings anywhere from full-bright (which allows visibility in full daytime sun) to full-dim (hardly visible in completely dark conditions). Furthermore every back-light, overhead light, map light, and flood light has a rheostat that allows full control over the intensity of its brightness. Which is good because every one of our pilots here turns the lights down at night to allow our eyes to adapt to night conditions when flying at night.

Isn't technology amazing?

dr-ebert said:

Lastly, the laser artist will be below you. The windows in a cockpit provide for a view forward; there's rather limited downward visibility. All of this doesn't spell "clear and present danger".

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Forward and downward visibility in a passenger jet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAxAso8xSo0

Anyone with a laser in anyone of those buildings, or standing on one of the many visible roads could easily get the laser in the pilots eyes and cause a problem.

Let me ask you a question:

If I was landing an aircraft that had you or your family on board would you be comfortable with having someone blasting me with a 150mw greenie 10 seconds before touchdown?