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Old 11-14-2010, 10:30 PM #17
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
Remember, the US legal system is based in English law (innocent until proven guilty). Now the importer can begin shipping units into the US. It is now left to the customs and the FDA to "catch" the importer shipping units into the US that do not conform to the report.
In civil cases that is not true. Customs and law enforcement can legally seize and hold items under a variety of laws. Look up the legal doctrine of asset forfeiture.

Short story is that if the govt feels the property entered the country under false pretenses they can take the property and make you prove you have a legal right to it. The policy does not have to be applied equality or equitably.


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Old 11-14-2010, 10:40 PM #18
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeufelWolf View Post
In civil cases that is not true. Customs and law enforcement can legally seize and hold items under a variety of laws. Look up the legal doctrine of asset forfeiture.

Short story is that if the govt feels the property entered the country under false pretenses they can take the property and make you prove you have a legal right to it. The policy does not have to be applied equality or equitably.
Granted. The example was intended to illustrate why lasers that are clearly in violation of the FDA requirements could get an accession number and be imported under that document. They prefer to "catch" you after the fact than to prevent the problem before the act. It is also much less expensive to do it this way

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Old 11-15-2010, 02:46 AM #19
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

Why is this still in the for sale section? lol
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Old 11-15-2010, 12:51 PM #20
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan X View Post
Why is this still in the for sale section? lol
LOL! Because I didn't notice that was where it was

Moving it now.

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Old 11-15-2010, 01:11 PM #21
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

The looser regulation is in favour of us in the laser hobby, for better or worse. Safety is in the hands of the owner of said devices, for better or worse. It's an enigma, because regulation may prevent ownership in the first place and loose regulation may allow those we don't want to have them, owning one, which in the long run could prevent the sale of lasers.
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:40 PM #22
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

I just had another arctic (buying some x-mas presents) make it through customs with no trouble whatsoever..
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:50 PM #23
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
I just had another arctic (buying some x-mas presents) make it through customs with no trouble whatsoever..
Absolutely. Literally hundreds (thousands?) of them have been delivered.

I bought one of the first ones (which I sold to Kenom and he sold to someone else). I bought, tuned up, and sold a couple of others from a guy in Canada. I have four of them here in various stages of repair.

The discussion is not whether they can get through. The issue was whether they were actually being "legally" imported. Crack cocaine is totally illegal and yet it is still sold on street corners all over the US.

My point was not whether they would get through or not. The point was whether they were legal. Order them. I LOVE this host. Just don't get PO'd if/when it gets held at the point of entry. That is a chance you take with ordering it.

It also looks like the west coast port of entry is more of a challenge in this respect than the other ports of entry

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Last edited by daguin; 11-15-2010 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:51 PM #24
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

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Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
I just had another arctic (buying some x-mas presents) make it through customs with no trouble whatsoever..
Which customs? West coast US (SFO and ONT) seem to be very aggressive where-as JFK is not as strict.
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:03 PM #25
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

EDIT: It was processed thru San Francisco.


That is true Dave.. they may still be illegal if held up to finer scrutiny. I just wish that the rules were a little easier to understand. I'm fairly sure that often even the Customs agents don't really know just what is required in terms of laser import.. the reason I say that is because I happen to know that there are employees of the CDRH itself who really SHOULD know the ins and outs of the rules, but don't seem to know for sure.

I recently had a long conversation with a CDRH employee about whether or not the FAA must be notified for outdoor laser shows where the beams are all terminated and NEVER allowed to enter airspace.. the answer, direct from the horse's mouth: We're not sure.. better notify them to be 100% covered.

They should be 100% sure.. the legalese (created by the CDRH ironically) that I went over on my own indicated that FAA must only be informed when beams enter navigable airspace.. the area of air directly inside the confines of an outdoor amphitheatre does not count as "navigable airspace". In order for beams to enter navigable airspace, they must leave the confines of the venue and continue out into open air.
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Last edited by ElektroFreak; 11-15-2010 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 11-15-2010, 07:32 PM #26
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

I just got a copy of a letter that was e-mailed to me. It' is refering to his brothers WL shipment.

Hello,
FDA and Customs has detained your shipment because this portable laser does not meet FDA regulations. I have attached documentation that FDA uses to measure the safety of a laser or radiological devices.
Thanks,
Corey White
BTA/FDA SPECIALIST
UPS Supply Chain Solutions
Phone: 803-502-7173
Fax: 803-502-7567
Email: coreywhite@u p s . c o m

Here is a link that was sent also Consumer Safety Alert: Internet Sales of Laser Products
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:11 PM #27
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

^Hmm.. very odd. I see that you're using UPS.. I avoid them like the plague myself. They always find a way to complicate things. USPS is the only way to ship as far as I'm concerned. This makes me wonder if US customs has seized your item or if UPS has it because they think it's in violation. Something's not quite right, as that document is NOT a blanket notice of contraband for all portable lasers no matter what, and simply being a portable laser is not in itself grounds for claiming that the device does not meet FDA regs. Several US companies sell portable class IIIB and IV lasers LEGALLY, so clearly there is not a blanket ban on importing all class IV portable lasers. If there was, then these companies could not sell them legally in the US. Oemlasersystems.com is one of these companies, and I would severely doubt that their CNI portables are illegal.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:26 PM #28
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

^ It's not mine I got that in an e-mail fom a friend of mine. It was sent to his brother, that was just a copy that he sent me. I canceled my arctic order in August. It got held up in Onatario, Cal. He lives in Nevada.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:30 PM #29
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

Well with any luck someone somewhere will get laser import/export all figured out.. but for now it seems that you just never know what's going to happen.

I will say that *knock on wood* out of many different kinds of laser systems I've bought from overseas, lab and portable, not ONE has ever been held up by customs.. and I ship only through USPS. I also avoid buying cheap high-powered Chinese no name portables and pointers, so that might be part of it too. Most of what I buy are lab-style units.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:45 PM #30
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

It doesn't sound good for WL, from what I have read there are a lot of their shipments getting held up, mostly on the west coast. Hopefully other laser companies won't have any problems getting their lasers thru customs.
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:16 PM #31
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
That is true Dave.. they may still be illegal if held up to finer scrutiny. I just wish that the rules were a little easier to understand. I'm fairly sure that often even the Customs agents don't really know just what is required in terms of laser import.. the reason I say that is because I happen to know that there are employees of the CDRH itself who really SHOULD know the ins and outs of the rules, but don't seem to know for sure.

I recently had a long conversation with a CDRH employee about whether or not the FAA must be notified for outdoor laser shows where the beams are all terminated and NEVER allowed to enter airspace.. the answer, direct from the horse's mouth: We're not sure.. better notify them to be 100% covered.

They should be 100% sure.. the legalese (created by the CDRH ironically) that I went over on my own indicated that FAA must only be informed when beams enter navigable airspace.. the area of air directly inside the confines of an outdoor amphitheatre does not count as "navigable airspace". In order for beams to enter navigable airspace, they must leave the confines of the venue and continue out into open air.
Aye. Lamentable, but true.

"We're not sure . . . Better notify them to be 100% covered"

Translation = "I don't know and I have no intention of reading the regulation to find out. I hope somebody in my office knows this stuff"

Peace,
dave
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:19 AM #32
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Default Re: just a reminder for those with arctics

Since OEM Lasers was mentioned please notice that none of our portables is Class IV. The class IIIb systems all have key switches, beam delays, emission indicators, aperture covers, and interlocks. That's the way we roll. Because of this they are accessioned properly and always import without problems. Our largest purchaser of portables is the military followed by universities. We've probably sold two or so to hobbyists.

The OEM integration systems we offer, on the other hand, have no safety systems yet we have accessioned them as non-compliant systems and restrict their sale only to entities developing equipment requiring laser sources. Again, never any problems with import. Furthermore, we've never been flagged for any questionable imports and our volume of import clearly indicates a commercial concern.

I suspect the issue they are running into is fraudulent 2877s. They are probably using an accessioned class IIIb system to import the laser and someone caught it. I notice that the sample FDA 2877 has no manufacturer of record listed on the 2877. Hell, I'd flag that if I saw it.

The shipping company does not inspect the merchandise. They simply act as your agent when dealing with customs and FDA. As the agent, they make sure the commercial invoice, the bill of lading, and any declaration documents are submitted to customs and FDA. They don't make these up. These need to be supplied by the shipper or receiver. They then contact the necessary parties to get any missing documentation. The first contact is to the exporter. WL may not be responding to their requests and so the import just sits. They may then try to contact you for the documentation.

Not everything gets close inspection particularly if you are a regular importer. As long as you give the inspectors no reason to question the imports things run smooth. WL is identified to the FDA as a violator and they will get close inspection every single time the import is recognized. That's why you often see the originator company as something different then the company you purchased from. They are simply trying to dodge the flag set by the FDA.

It's unfortunate but it's the nature of the beast.
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