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Old 04-07-2010, 02:47 AM #17
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Default Re: Its a matter of time now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aryntha View Post
Course, FDA interlocks won't stop a douchebag from being a douchebag.
But it might still let us buy high powered lasers if a law does come into effect.


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Old 04-07-2010, 03:35 AM #18
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Default Re: Its a matter of time now...

As far as Canada goes for lasers, IIRC it falls under the CDRH opposed to the FDA. There are a few differences between the two, and the rules they enforce.

Planes getting flashed with lasers is not a new thing here either. Though it is the first time I have heard the word 'BAN' following the news story, so it seems to be escalating on .CA.GOV to do list.

The incidents that caused the ban in Aussie were multiple idiots hitting the same planes at once during take off and landing at a large international airport, I think it was in Sydney.. 5 to 7 individuals coordinating 'laser attacks' prompted action.

I dont think it is that bad here, it seems to be isolated incidents, and on some occasion in close proximity to Pearson Airport.

The situation just seems to be coming to a head, and pilots are sick of dealing with it. There is a thread here on LPF from several months back that should be searchable, and many threads that started on this topic as incidents hit the news..

Take a peak at this video, this is a real time occurrence in the UK with a cop chopper being hit a couple thousand feet up, you can actually see the pilots face light up green.




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Old 04-07-2010, 07:41 AM #19
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Default Re: Its a matter of time now...

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Originally Posted by aryntha View Post
See, I actually prefer FDA-rated hosts. Very little chance of an "Oops, I just shot my eye by bumping the button and having the beam reflect off of something in my room."

I know some folks think the delay and interlocks are a pain, but are we really that impatient?

Course, FDA interlocks won't stop a douchebag from being a douchebag.


Congratulations, ladies and gents. We are outlaws.

I agree that the safety features are great. I don't mind waiting a few seconds for a some hundreds of milliWatts of green light to shine from the muzzle.


Only allowing certified lasers with safety features is great. But in practice it does not work. As you mentioned, a douchebag will be a douchebag.
The problem with the "non-FDA/CDRH certified" ban is that even if you do it that way, it still needs to be enforced...

Take the USA for example-
Here we have a country in which it is illegal to import or "enter into commerce" any laser. ANY laser.
The only exception being laser systems that have proper certification and safety features if applicable.

BUT (!!!)

Class IIIb lasers are imported from all over the world every day. How? It is expensive and labor intensive to check every package. Giving the package a false or misleading contents description can be enough to get it through US customs unhindered.

The law already exists in the USA, it is just not easily enforced. This results in many illegal lasers slipping through the cracks and ending up in some loser's hands, directing the beam at anything and everything they shouldn't.

In my opinion, e-Bay has taken the right path and has prohibited all sales of hand-held lasers >5mW.
I even hear that PayPal even looks out for conspicuous laser sales/purchases.

The problem is that importation is difficult to control. China has no reason to stop selling illegal lasers to US citizens. It is a wonder that DealExtreme has stopped selling to the US (a VERY good choice IMO).

A type of "black market" exists. I do not think it is nearly as dangerous as illicit marketing of drugs, prostitutes, and weapons so I will not compare them, but the "black market" for lasers does exist. And we are part of it.


Some years ago, when I first discovered the world of high power lasers, the technology was still relatively new and unknown. Back then, a price barrier kept the average teenager from buying a hazardous item. Since the mass produced Chinese green laser pen took over the market, prices have come down and now everyone can own one.
While this may be a good thing for young enthusiasts and those of us looking for a "toy," it is also bad for us all. Sure, it provides an affordable introduction into a fascinating and amusing hobby, but it also provides an affordable way to distract pilots and harass the general public (And piss me off).
In my opinion, I would rather NO cheap Chinese lasers be available to the public. If the only lasers available cost a formidable amount of [units of currency], the average jackass will not want to spend that money just to annoy some pilots and drivers. I can live without the cheapie lasers. I don't mind saving up and working for what I want.


Whether a ban is implemented or not, the hobby will hang around, albeit by a thread... an illegal thread.


The ONLY ways to solve the problem are these:

1. Make a clear example of one of these idiots. Crucify them (not literally... maybe).
2. EDUCATE.

Last edited by RA_pierce; 04-07-2010 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:13 AM #20
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Default Re: Its a matter of time now...

Thanks, RA.

I'm both a pilot and a laser enthusiast... Without fail whenever one of these threads come up, there's at least *some* defense of the moron by saying "Oh come on, it wasn't that big of a deal" or, "Why can't the pilots just wear goggles?" or "Just put red filters on the windows!"

I explain that it doesn't work, from first hand experience, and for the most part, I'm ignored.

Look at my sig. Do you guys think I don't value my lasers? Heh, do I ever. But this is a big deal. It's not pilots "whining", and it's not overblown.

I want to:

A) keep flying
B) keep my lasers.

Whenever some jerkwad pulls out a 532 and aims it at a plane I get bit in the ass from BOTH sides here.

In this hobby, laser safety has to be THE untouchable rule. There has to be NO tolerance for foolishness with directed beams of energy.

See what happens when you go to a firing range and point a gun where you shouldn't - and then say you were "just kidding" or that the rangemaster "made too big of a deal about it".

What RA said. We have to call these idiots out, not defend them. Defending them is not defense of our hobby, it's detrimental to it.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:52 AM #21
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Question Re: Its a matter of time now...

Uhmmmmmm ..... just wondering how much of these peoples do this stupid thing (shining lasers at cops heli) intentionally for set up a ban of all the lasers .....

..... usual question ..... "qui prodest ?" .....
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:08 AM #22
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Default Re: Its a matter of time now...

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Originally Posted by HIMNL9 View Post
Uhmmmmmm ..... just wondering how much of these peoples do this stupid thing (shining lasers at cops heli) intentionally for set up a ban of all the lasers .....

..... usual question ..... "qui prodest ?" .....
Doubt it. Too much of a risk for the individual. And if these guys weren't complete morons they'd stop for a second to realize that not only are they pointing a beam at the aircraft -- but the beam's also pointing right at them.

In most of these situations it's probably a matter of whatever underpowered think-engine they have just seizing up. They know that if they point a beam at the helicopter, something exciting might happen. They act on the impulse, and do it.

They just don't go forward with the followthrough, you know, actual cause-and-effect cognizent thought, and realize what that "something" is most likely to be - an air disaster, or them ending up doing time.

Sometimes I wonder what these idiots expect, if there actually was a result. Say the helicopter went down. What would they do, give eachother a high five, say "Man that was wicked awesome!" and go get a few beers?

... I don't know. Maybe I'm spending too much time thinking about people who really are beyond comprehension - people who just need to be caught and put away before they take others down with them.

As RA_Pierce said, I agree that the "cheapness" and commonality of high powered laser pointers has something to do with this phenomenon of allowing an individual to even begin to think its "ok" to point a directed beam of energy at an aircraft. Nobody (okay -- a few people do. But they're statistical outliers) buys a gun on a whim and starts firing it into the air. They know what it is, and if you're going to go through the trouble to get one, generally there's some respect involved.

But... 50mW for $14.95? "How could something that costs $15 bucks, doesn't make loud scary noises, and looks like a little pen, ever hurt anyone?"

One of my lasers is one of those cheap-looking "NewWish style"/"eBayser" green pointers. I got it on eBay, $4.95 - along with two other identical looking ones. Advertised as 5mW, something that the average Joe certainly may pick up on a whim.

This one looks just like the other two - that waver around 4-8mW, except I've put three little black dots on the back cap, for this reason. You press the button and it putters around pretty normally at around 7mW for about a minute. Then, the room lights up as, "pop", the crystals warm up, or come into alignment,and it jumps up to 50mW. From there it climbs to 80mW, hovers there for a few minutes, and then settles down to the mid 60's.

It follows this pattern every time... Can you imagine some average joe getting a laser "surprise" like that? No idea that a little toy like that could cause any trouble. I can see the cries of "Whoa, dude!" as the beam suddenly becomes visible and the guy starts waving it around. "Let's take it outside!" -- and it goes downhill from there.

I know we love our cheap lasers but... ubiquity and the initial illusion of 'harmlessness' is probably a contributor to this problem.
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655nm:LOC 254mW ∙ OLIKE 221mW ∙ Yob 320mW
638nm:Sanyo 40mW ∙ HL63133 200mW ∙ PGL3C 463mWpk ∙ ML520 700mW
633nm:JDS1145 HeNe 28mW ∙ JDS1145 HeNe 26mW
612nm:MG 05LOR151 HeNe 3mW ∙ REO LSTP 3mW
609nm:REO LHOR 1mW
604nm:REO LSTP 2mW
594nm:Rigel 3mW ∙ LG PGL3C 15mWpk ∙ Lasos 7512 3mW ∙ CNI MGL3 58mWpk
589nm:CNI PGL3C 106mW ∙ CNI PGL3C 85mW
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544nm:JDS1675P HeNe 2mW ∙ REO LHGR 2mW ∙ Lasos 7786 2mW
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515nm:JDS 221420GL ArI 30mW
510nm:52mW DG#2 ∙ 50mW 26650 DG
488nm:Nlx DPSS 7mW ∙ JDS 2214 ArI 40mW ∙ JDS FCD488 DPSS 25mW
ML:MG 65A106025 ArI ML 115mW
476/480nm:Nichia Diode 28mW
473nm:PGL3A 45mW(80pk) ∙ PGL3C 110mWpk ∙ PGL3C 95mWpk ∙ RPLB-25 60mWpk
465nm:DTR NDB7676 2.03w
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445nm:Yob 1410mW ∙ Polaris 156mW ∙ PGL3C 1200mW ∙ DTR-EHG 32650 2136mW
405nm:Yob 630mW ∙ Qfox 750mW ∙ JETL PLC 780mW

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Old 04-07-2010, 10:32 AM #23
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Cool Re: Its a matter of time now...

Oh, i'm not saying that stupid peoples don't exist (after all, there's sooooo much examples, about this :P ) ..... i agree that some of them are just or too uninformed/ignorant about what's a laser, or just too stupid for care about it .....

I'm just wondering if ALL them are so ..... i mean, after all, i live in Italy ..... and here, is not the first time that police and gov "set-up" specific cases just for have the opportunity and mass support for change some laws or made targeted ones, then "undertake" anything, after .....

Just a "theorical" example (well, not too much "theorical", but you understand that i cannot say names, when all the proofs are "magically disappeared" ) .....

1) someone need a specific law against something .....

2) casually, some "criminals" do public acts right in the days they need, casually the same thing .....

3) tv and media present them as terrorists and "pump" the news for weeks, giving importance that "citizens need that law" and "citizens ask for that law" (false, but as usual, you cannot say it) .....

4) gov, finally, "responding to the needs of the citizens", set-up the "needed" and "asked" law (ofcourse, none care not mention that the new law, reading it with attention, gives advantages only to the peoples that have set-up it ..... but where in the world, citizens care about something that tv and media don't even mention ? ) .....

5) tv and media stop to talk about this, and give new lots of informations for distract the attention of the few ones that maybe are asking "what the new law do, in concrete ?" .....

6) after a pair of weeks, almost none remember what was happened and what was the informations, who was the "criminals" (in the meantime, no one talk anymore about them, no other news, no pics, no processes, no charges, nothing at all), the gov is happy cause now there's the law that they want, the peoples are happy cause now they have the last episodes of "big brother" or "island of famous" or soccer championate and other similar bulls*it to see, and who the hell care or remember what happened 2 or 3 weeks ago, anyway ? .....


..... call me pessimist, if you want, but in my 48 years i've seen this scheme happened more than one time .....
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Old 04-10-2010, 08:04 PM #24
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Default Re: Its a matter of time now...

If you feel strongly, about this matter, help ILDA improve

Laser Pointer Safety - Tips on keeping laser pointers safe and legal

The point of view of the laser show community is:

1. cheap unapproved, illegally, installed Chinese projectors degrade the art and are a safety hazard when audience scanning.

2. Outdoor laser pointer incidents will just make trouble for laser shows and legitimate scientific and industrial users of lasers.

You want to keep your high power lasers legal, make it hard for Joe Smuck to illegally import 100-200 mW for 50$. You guys may gripe about US Customs, and obscure CDRH rules. but if they could do their job, and not have to fight the imports of lasers marked "Power Supply" and " LED FLASHLIGHT", The Chinese would then be forced to make compliant gear and restrict access.

If you want to go the way of Australia and make anything over 1 mW illegal, just continue to allow anybody with a 10 IQ or no common sense to be able to buy anything with paypal. Since OZ is a much smaller county, their Customs branch is extremely effective at nailing illegal imports..

The very fact that these are low cost is coming back to bite you. Not to mention your willing to spend 500 USD on something that costs them less then 20$ to make. Labor over there guys is 33 cents a hour for skilled labor, with low taxes and no health care or safety on the production line, nor environmental rules. You really hurt your own economy when you buy 200-500$ worth of Chinese goods.


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Old 04-10-2010, 08:11 PM #25
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Default Re: Its a matter of time now...

If you feel strongly, about this matter, help ILDA improve

Laser Pointer Safety - Tips on keeping laser pointers safe and legal

The point of view of the laser show community is:

1. cheap unapproved, illegally, installed Chinese projectors degrade the art and are a safety hazard when audience scanning.

2. Outdoor laser pointer incidents will just make trouble for laser shows and legitimate scientific and industrial users of lasers.

You want to keep your high power lasers legal, make it hard for Joe Smuck to illegally import 100-200 mW for 50$. You guys may gripe about US customs, but if they could do their job, and not have to fight the imports of lasers marked "Power Supply" and " LED FLASHLIGHT", The Chinese would then be forced to make compliant gear and restrict access.

If you want to go the way of Australia and make anything over 1 mW illegal, just continue to allow anybody with a 10 IQ or no common sense to be able to buy anything with paypal.

The very fact that these are low cost is coming back to bite you. Now also please remember I don't agree its a good thing for a US Laser manufacturer to have a minimum price of 700-800$ for any laser they make including a 5 mW diode.

Steve
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