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Old 05-26-2013, 01:23 AM #1
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Exclamation Illegal laser store?

Hi there,

It's my first post on this forum. Recently I've got a small laser pointer, that I'll use on the university class presentation. Due to this, I've read a lot of information about laser safety, dangers, etc. Of course, the laser I've got is a small 0.5mW, but I haven't idea there are 5W pointers that can "burn" your eyes almost instantly!!

So, I think: what can I do to help people to preserve their vision? Well, may be someone on this forum can help me?

I've found an online laser pointers store, that looks like a "illegal laser store in china". For instance, they sells 2W without no "real" warning / safety notice!! Well, there is a warning:

"Warning: Laser pointers if aimed at a person's eyes can cause temporary disturbances to vision. There is some evidence of rare minor permanent harm, but low-powered laser pointers are not seriously hazardous to health"

Definitely, 2W isn't low power laser!! And definitely, the harm will not be minor!

So, is it possible to take any action to do something? Is there any regulation agency that can acts in cases like this?

Any suggestion / opinions are welcome!
Regards, Ruslan


PD: I don't leave the link to the store page, because I don't want to promote the site!


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Old 05-26-2013, 01:46 AM #2
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Well first I don't think they are really selling 2w lasers, since most of them are declared way over their actual power.
Second I don't know of any law that prohibits announcing hi power lasers for sale, in many countries it prohibit to use such lasers.

I think it's up to everyone to take safety precautions in using them. Otherwise you would have to sue every knife seller, every bow manufacturer... Ecc..ecc objects that are way more dangerous and sold by the hundreds and need no special permit.
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Old 05-26-2013, 01:46 AM #3
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

The Chinese government doesn't care and the US government (as well as other foreign governments) has no power there

All you can do is protect yourself and the people around you

Peace,
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Old 05-26-2013, 03:41 AM #4
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Welcome to the Forum Ruslan

Have fun and be Safe
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Old 05-26-2013, 05:23 AM #5
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Why, I have no idea what you're speaking of, Special Dective In Charge. Is that an FDA badge? It's very nice!

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Old 05-26-2013, 01:54 PM #6
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruslanb View Post
Hi there,



So, I think: what can I do to help people to preserve their vision? Well, may be someone on this forum can help me?

I've found an online laser pointers store, that looks like a "illegal laser store in china". For instance, they sells 2W without no "real" warning / safety notice!! Well, there is a warning:





So, is it possible to take any action to do something? Is there any regulation agency that can acts in cases like this?

Any suggestion / opinions are welcome!
Regards, Ruslan


PD: I don't leave the link to the store page, because I don't want to promote the site!
My suggestion is, don't worry about it.

It's not illegal for China or any sovereign nation to manufacture and sell lasers of any design with or without safety features or power output. And the thought there is some international legal agency action that can be taken is erroneous. As for not providing a link that doesn't matter, I'm confident that site is already known.

Sidenote: I found this interesting.
The lasers come in three colors: green (532 nm), blue (450 nm), and violet (405 nm). In terms of visual interference with pilots and motorists, the lasers have the following effects:

A 2000 mW green laser is a flashblindness hazard to 5,200 feet (~1 mile), a glare/disruption hazard to 24,000 feet (4.5 miles), and a distraction hazard to 234,000 feet (44 miles).

A 2000 mW blue laser is a flashblindness hazard to 176 feet, a glare/disruption hazard to 816 feet, and a distraction hazard to 7,956 feet (1.5 miles). This is based on 450 nm blue light appearing 3.4% as bright to the human eye as 532 nm green light. Note that the eye hazard distance (about 1,000 feet) is longer than the flashblindness and glare hazard distances.

A 2000 mW violet laser is a flashblindness hazard to 47 feet, a glare/disruption hazard to 216 feet, and a distraction hazard to 2,100 feet. This is based on 405 nm violet light appearing 0.9% as bright to the human eye as 532 green nm light. Note that the eye hazard distance (about 1,000 feet) is longer than the flashblindness and glare hazard distances. http://www.laserpointersafety.com/ne...cd1fdc-181.php

Last edited by steve001; 05-26-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 05-26-2013, 03:24 PM #7
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve001 View Post
My suggestion is, don't worry about it.

It's not illegal for China or any sovereign nation to manufacture and sell lasers of any design with or without safety features or power output. And the thought there is some international legal agency action that can be taken is erroneous. As for not providing a link that doesn't matter, I'm confident that site is already known.

Sidenote: I found this interesting.
The lasers come in three colors: green (532 nm), blue (450 nm), and violet (405 nm). In terms of visual interference with pilots and motorists, the lasers have the following effects:

A 2000 mW green laser is a flashblindness hazard to 5,200 feet (~1 mile), a glare/disruption hazard to 24,000 feet (4.5 miles), and a distraction hazard to 234,000 feet (44 miles).

A 2000 mW blue laser is a flashblindness hazard to 176 feet, a glare/disruption hazard to 816 feet, and a distraction hazard to 7,956 feet (1.5 miles). This is based on 450 nm blue light appearing 3.4% as bright to the human eye as 532 nm green light. Note that the eye hazard distance (about 1,000 feet) is longer than the flashblindness and glare hazard distances.

A 2000 mW violet laser is a flashblindness hazard to 47 feet, a glare/disruption hazard to 216 feet, and a distraction hazard to 2,100 feet. This is based on 405 nm violet light appearing 0.9% as bright to the human eye as 532 green nm light. Note that the eye hazard distance (about 1,000 feet) is longer than the flashblindness and glare hazard distances. http://www.laserpointersafety.com/ne...cd1fdc-181.php

That is reasonably interesting..
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Old 05-26-2013, 03:41 PM #8
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve001 View Post
My suggestion is, don't worry about it.

It's not illegal for China or any sovereign nation to manufacture and sell lasers of any design with or without safety features or power output. And the thought there is some international legal agency action that can be taken is erroneous. As for not providing a link that doesn't matter, I'm confident that site is already known.

Sidenote: I found this interesting.
The lasers come in three colors: green (532 nm), blue (450 nm), and violet (405 nm). In terms of visual interference with pilots and motorists, the lasers have the following effects:

A 2000 mW green laser is a flashblindness hazard to 5,200 feet (~1 mile), a glare/disruption hazard to 24,000 feet (4.5 miles), and a distraction hazard to 234,000 feet (44 miles).

A 2000 mW blue laser is a flashblindness hazard to 176 feet, a glare/disruption hazard to 816 feet, and a distraction hazard to 7,956 feet (1.5 miles). This is based on 450 nm blue light appearing 3.4% as bright to the human eye as 532 nm green light. Note that the eye hazard distance (about 1,000 feet) is longer than the flashblindness and glare hazard distances.

A 2000 mW violet laser is a flashblindness hazard to 47 feet, a glare/disruption hazard to 216 feet, and a distraction hazard to 2,100 feet. This is based on 405 nm violet light appearing 0.9% as bright to the human eye as 532 green nm light. Note that the eye hazard distance (about 1,000 feet) is longer than the flashblindness and glare hazard distances. http://www.laserpointersafety.com/ne...cd1fdc-181.php
That is some interesting information. I wonder how they tested it... Did they blind 9 guys to test all the different aspects of the laser
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:52 PM #9
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyt View Post
That is reasonably interesting..
Quote:
Originally Posted by norbyx View Post
That is some interesting information. I wonder how they tested it... Did they blind 9 guys to test all the different aspects of the laser
I suspect animals were used early on. It's easy to figure out.
You can do it with programs such as Laser Visuals - Scanguard.
These programs are for laser shows so will have a lower distance limit. But it would be easy to create a program that could go any distance you want.

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Old 05-27-2013, 08:07 PM #10
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Sorry to say, that info is a load of BS.

First of all they arent selling any 2 watt blues, much less 532 and 405

Second, the apparent brightness doesn't matter. Two watts is two watts. Whether it is super bright green or invisible IR it will still blind you.

Third there is no account for divergence, which is the main factor for how much damage the lasers could do at a certain distance.
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:15 PM #11
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

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Originally Posted by norbyx View Post
That is some interesting information. I wonder how they tested it... Did they blind 9 guys to test all the different aspects of the laser
They use silimar equipment that we do for measurement.

Set up an optical detector, likely calibrated to specific wavelength, and it measures the amount of photons it recieves. They could also use sofware/hardware to simulate the senitivity of the eye.

I'm sure us humans have gather alot of info about our eyes and light. The first atomic test would have added some data, im sure..
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:10 PM #12
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by benmwv View Post

Second, the apparent brightness doesn't matter. Two watts is two watts. Whether it is super bright green or invisible IR it will still blind you.

Third there is no account for divergence, which is the main factor for how much damage the lasers could do at a certain distance.
True 2 W is 2 W, but the visibility of wavelengths in question is relevant (for flashblindness, glare and distraction hazards). The NOHD and ED50 however, will be different as they take the power and divergence directly into account. The others have a visual correction factor. All of these however still derive their distances by taking the divergence into account! Have a look for the online NOHD calculator

Edit: Here are some links. Sorry but I have to go to bed, busy day tomorrow. Ill try to do some calcs later.



And here's a link to another page: Laser safety - Nominal Ocular Hazard Distance and Area

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:48 PM #13
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

I thought flash blindness was based on power also, and could be cause by infrared? Maybe not. Its important that people understand apparent brightness has nothing to do with real damage caused though. Any real eye damage is caused by power. 445 and 405 are not safer than green because they look dimmer as the website suggests.

Divergence may have been accounted for in the original calculations, but I was talking about the differences between the divergences of the lasers. For example, a 2 watt dpss would have much much better divergence than a 2 watt 445nm diode, yet they based its statistics solely on the apparent brightness to the green laser. I wont even address the 405nm since there is no such diode available and therefore dont know its beam characteristics.
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Old 05-29-2013, 02:44 AM #14
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

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Originally Posted by benmwv View Post
I thought flash blindness was based on power also, and could be cause by infrared? Maybe not. Its important that people understand apparent brightness has nothing to do with real damage caused though. Any real eye damage is caused by power. 445 and 405 are not safer than green because they look dimmer as the website suggests.

Divergence may have been accounted for in the original calculations, but I was talking about the differences between the divergences of the lasers. For example, a 2 watt dpss would have much much better divergence than a 2 watt 445nm diode, yet they based its statistics solely on the apparent brightness to the green laser. I wont even address the 405nm since there is no such diode available and therefore dont know its beam characteristics.
You miss read the it.The assumptions that I see 1. It doesn't matter how the laser light is produced. It just says laser light. and 2. All things being equal these are the results. It doesn't say any of these lasers at that power output is more or less dangerous than the others. It points out what the response will be at various distances. Note blue and violet light would scatter more quickly than green light. Therefore be a lesser hazard.
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:02 PM #15
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

"This is based on 450nm blue light appearing 3.4% as bright to the human eye as 532 nm green light."

That is why I say they base them on apparent brightness, not divergence, scattering, or anything else. I don't see how I could have misread it?

You have to take the laser source into account. There is no general form you can use that can be each of these wave lengths. 445 at that power in a handheld will only come from a multimode diode. 532 at that power won't come in a handheld, but theoretically it could and it would be dpss. 405 absolutely won't come at that power in a handheld.

They don't say green is more dangerous, but someone who didn't know otherwise would come to that conclusion from their data. When you see that green causes flashblindness a mile away, but blue only causes it to 176 feet it is logical to think blue is much safer based on their "facts". This can be very misleading to someone who doesn't know much on the subject.

The reality is that a true two watt green would probably be more dangerous than the blue, but you will never get a 2 watt green from those china sites. You will be lucky to get 200mw. Because of the "facts" presented here though, someone might think their 445 china laser, which is probably > 1W, is safer and they can shine it on people as long as they aren't too close. Less than 176 feet away will just have a camera flash effect, further away than that is just a glare... yeah right.

I'm not against what they are doing, I just think they need to do some research and get their statistics correct before passing them off as facts.
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:16 PM #16
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Default Re: Illegal laser store?

Yes a true 2 W green will more than likely be more dangerous than a 2 W blue due to the divergence. However seeing as their measurements include the divergence and visual factor their conclusion would be the same.

I understand what you are saying, but they have only listed the distances for (flashblindness, glare and distraction), not NOHD or LD50. I agree the last two are actually more important, as they tell you at what distance the laser should be safe. This has been omitted and yes I see how it could be misleading and even dangerous.

They have merely stated some facts and omitted others that are actually more important, but (provided their 405 divergence is correct) they are facts. Its what the end user does with them thats important.
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