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Old 01-26-2011, 09:15 PM #65
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

Okay, see, this is why we can't dither. This is why, even though it "feels nice" to talk about reasons why its "not a big deal", it's still a bad idea to do so.

Thanks, Joe, for another left-seat perspective.

There you have it, yet more pilots who underline that it is a real problem, no matter what the back-of-the-napkin math tells you; but also doesn't want portables to be banned.

Seriously. LPF needs to display zero-tolerance on this stuff.

If there is anything we can do to stop an outright ban at this point (unlikely, I think it's a matter of time) - we have to have the solid foundation that anyone who would even suggest aircraft illumination as permissible becomes a pariah in the laser community -- we CANNOT be seen as enablers.

Joe: I do hope you stick around LPF and comment more on the subject. It'd be nice to have another voice from the aviation side of things!


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Old 01-26-2011, 11:58 PM #66
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

I agree with Aryntha. We not only need to have a zero tolerance for posts encouraging laser misuse, but we also need to help educate people about the science behind lasers, laser safety and the consequences of their misuse. This is the best way to prevent these things from happening. While lasers will probably not be banned, they are very close to being strongly regulated.

Even the latter would be a real problem for US Hobbyists, because that would likely mean that we would need to obtain licenses to own and operate lasers, pay fees, take courses, and have all our information in a government database, for starters. Not to mention bye bye anyone under 18 who wants a class IIIb and above laser.

-Sal
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:10 AM #67
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

Its nice to hear some input from pilots on this!

Making shining lasers at aircraft a federal crime is something the US can do, and i wouldn't object to that at all. Imposing a severe punishment might prevent people from even going close to shining at an aircraft, which is also good.

The problem is that it doesnt prevent the problem completely. Lets face it, people get murdered over the $50 in their wallet, even though the punishment for that is extreme. Banning lasers will not help much either, its like the weapons ban in europe: law abiding citizens are left defenseless while criminals still have plenty of guns.

The solution has to come from two sides, i'm affraid. Preventing sane people from shining lasers at aircraft is one end of the equation. The other end would still have to be a solution that reduces risks to planes if illuminated by insane laser operators.

One solution would be to optimize the pilots response to such incidents. Obviously there are protocols for what action to take if visual contact is lost (by shit in your eyes, or a shattered canopy by birdstrike on smaller planes).

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In order to preserve my night vision during an illumination event I would have to look away from the source. That would most likely mean eyes down inside the cockpit. Would you like me to do that when I am only a couple hundred feet off the ground traveling at 150+ mph concentrating on the runway environment, trying to safely land, with your family in the back?
That is a question that needs to be answered indeed.

I'm not sure what type of aircraft are typically involved in the mentioned incidents. If its large passenger carriers landing on major airports, they will probably be able to complete the landing using class-3 ILS.

The biggest danger is probably to smaller aircraft landing at night. I can imagine this would be a big hazard if your aircraft lacks expensive modern safety equipment. Doing a blind go-around without TCAS on a busy airport would be hazardous as well. Personally i'd probably invest in a couple of goggles if i had to land on an airport where laser incidents are reported. Surely, flying with goggles is far from ideal and obscures some instruments, but its probably still preferable to going in without seeing the runway at all...
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:19 AM #68
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

Man will never stop 100% of them. But we can do our part to make it less. We need to also consider that if we don't start banning together then when they start making laws they will ban them out right. Lasers will not be protected like guns are. If we don't make a "safe laser community" that can defend there rights of owning them and being responsible for them. If we don't they will run us over in the next few years. And this is also a notice to everyone that we should buy what we can while we can..... before we can't.....
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:43 AM #69
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

They won't ban lasers outright. There are too many uses for them: Laser surgery, construction, corporate R&D, industrial uses; what would be more likely is the restriction/regulation of laser ownership and use.

Not to mention a ban would cost alot of money and with no licensing fees to pay for the law's implementation it would not be feasable.
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:47 AM #70
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

Hand held, not industry/professional use
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:09 AM #71
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Cool Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

Ahh I see your point. Still in my opinion, it will be a licensing requirement instead of a ban. Too much money to be made, and much easier to implement.

A ban would legally be too complicated, and probably unconstitutional. We do have the right to bear arms. Think of it this way: does a weapon have to be a "gun" to be a weapon? Does a "gun" have to shoot pieces of metal to be a "gun"? How much longer will guns shoot bullets before something more lethal is invented?

But I digress. Incidents with lasers and planes doubled last year. This is logical because of the increased availability of handheld lasers. The point is that if people don't stop wonton misuse of handheld lasers, something will be done, and wether a ban is implemented or other types of restrictions are used, either way, we loose.

Legislation restricting/banning ALL handhelds is still pretty far away. You may think that a few people on some forums may not be able to help, but we can. Alot of people into lasers end up here, and we can do something to prevent the problem or even keep it in check, before something bad happens.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:25 AM #72
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

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Ahh I see your point. Still in my opinion, it will be a licensing requirement instead of a ban. Too much money to be made, and much easier to implement.

A ban would legally be too complicated, and probably unconstitutional. We do have the right to bear arms. Think of it this way: does a weapon have to be a "gun" to be a weapon? Does a "gun" have to shoot pieces of metal to be a "gun"? How much longer will guns shoot bullets before something more lethal is invented?

But I digress. Incidents with lasers and planes doubled last year. This is logical because of the increased availability of handheld lasers. The point is that if people don't stop wonton misuse of handheld lasers, something will be done, and wether a ban is implemented or other types of restrictions are used, either way, we loose.

Legislation restricting/banning ALL handhelds is still pretty far away. You may think that a few people on some forums may not be able to help, but we can. Alot of people into lasers end up here, and we can do something to prevent the problem or even keep it in check, before something bad happens.
I agree and feel if we don't make our selfs into a unit working as one we will get steamrolled by the nay sayer and media slaves.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:38 AM #73
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

Its funny how the media paint lasers as this evil thing that people are surprised isnt regulated already. "Anyone can order one of these things off the internet" they say, like its some thing that shoudlnt be allowed lol.

The media will latch onto anything for ratings and lasers are the "flavor of the month". Its not too late though, it will take alot more than a little negatve media for something widespread to happen.

I think the "Securing Aircraft Cockpits Against Lasers Act of 2010" was basically congress' response to the whole thing.
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:44 AM #74
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

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I'm not sure what type of aircraft are typically involved in the mentioned incidents. If its large passenger carriers landing on major airports, they will probably be able to complete the landing using class-3 ILS.
I can not simply switch to a CAT-3 Auto-Land ILS the last few thousand feet of an approach. There are multiple requirements that have to be met both on the ground and in the air. The airplane has to meet certain equipment requirements. Very few items can be inoperative on the aircraft and they have to pass a functionality test en-route to the airport of intended landing. Then there is the approach briefing. A standard brief on a clear day might take 30 seconds. A briefing for a CAT-2 or CAT-3 ILS will take several minutes - like 10 or so. Also the briefing needs to be done before descending below 10,000 feet. My company prefers above 18,000. Also every ILS - CAT-2 and 3 - have to meet certain requirements of visibility and all have a DH "Decision Height". Only the CAT-3c ILS is without restrictions in regards to visibility and DH. In other words a CAT-3c ILS permits landing totally blind. All other categories of ILS have a point at which you need to be able to see at least part of the runway environment. But... nowhere on the planet Earth is CAT-3c used.

You mentioned filtering goggles. There is a problem with filtering out certain wavelengths of light outside of the obscuring instruments problem:

Most common color of lasers involved in these "attacks": Green and Red.

The beginning of the runway is marked by green lights. The end of the runway is marked by red lights. Put those goggles on and now I can't tell where the runway starts and stops for sure.

Landing short of the runway and/or overrunning the runway might equal death.

The root of the problem though is shining a laser at an aircraft is stupid, and you can't legislate against stupidity.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:49 AM #75
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

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I can not simply switch to a CAT-3 Auto-Land ILS the last few thousand feet of an approach. There are multiple requirements that have to be met both on the ground and in the air. The airplane has to meet certain equipment requirements. Very few items can be inoperative on the aircraft and they have to pass a functionality test en-route to the airport of intended landing. Then there is the approach briefing. A standard brief on a clear day might take 30 seconds. A briefing for a CAT-2 or CAT-3 ILS will take several minutes - like 10 or so. Also the briefing needs to be done before descending below 10,000 feet. My company prefers above 18,000. Also every ILS - CAT-2 and 3 - have to meet certain requirements of visibility and all have a DH "Decision Height". Only the CAT-3c ILS is without restrictions in regards to visibility and DH. In other words a CAT-3c ILS permits landing totally blind. All other categories of ILS have a point at which you need to be able to see at least part of the runway environment. But... nowhere on the planet Earth is CAT-3c used.

You mentioned filtering goggles. There is a problem with filtering out certain wavelengths of light outside of the obscuring instruments problem:

Most common color of lasers involved in these "attacks": Green and Red.

The beginning of the runway is marked by green lights. The end of the runway is marked by red lights. Put those goggles on and now I can't tell where the runway starts and stops for sure.

Landing short of the runway and/or overrunning the runway might equal death.

The root of the problem though is shining a laser at an aircraft is stupid, and you can't legislate against stupidity.

We really do appreciate your in-put and would love for you to stay around. I think making airplanes laser resistant would be very hard near impossible as you have described. And also agree, we will never be able to stop everyone from getting a powerful enough laser (even if it was banned) and be stupid enough to shine it at anything with people in it.

We can tho, create a community of laser owners that the public can see as responsible and we would follow guidelines, protecting our rights to own a laser responsibly. Unless we mass together we will never have a voice, as we will watch out hobby get taken away.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:39 PM #76
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

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Its funny how the media paint lasers as this evil thing that people are surprised isnt regulated already. "Anyone can order one of these things off the internet" they say, like its some thing that shoudlnt be allowed lol.
Yup, thats the media alright. If someone is attacked with a hammer they should also mention that there is a huge problem since everyone get just pick up one of those lethal things at wallwart


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The root of the problem though is shining a laser at an aircraft is stupid, and you can't legislate against stupidity.
I'm affraid that IS the conclusion...
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Old 01-27-2011, 04:53 PM #77
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

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You mentioned filtering goggles. There is a problem with filtering out certain wavelengths of light outside of the obscuring instruments problem:

Most common color of lasers involved in these "attacks": Green and Red.

The beginning of the runway is marked by green lights. The end of the runway is marked by red lights. Put those goggles on and now I can't tell where the runway starts and stops for sure.

Landing short of the runway and/or overrunning the runway might equal death.
Thank you.. I've brought this up several times in response to the "Why can't they just put a special filter coating on the windows?" response. Which seems to be about as inevitable as the "But the window are on top, not on the bottom!" response.

People have the wrong impression of flight and aviation. Many people I've talked to have assumed that planes today essentially have a "land" button, and that's it.

Sure, there's a lot more pilot assistance than there used to be in a modern glass cockpit, but its not quite like that, and being distracted during landing can easily kill you.
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638nm:Sanyo 40mW ∙ HL63133 200mW ∙ PGL3C 463mWpk ∙ ML520 700mW
633nm:JDS1145 HeNe 28mW ∙ JDS1145 HeNe 26mW
612nm:MG 05LOR151 HeNe 3mW ∙ REO LSTP 3mW
609nm:REO LHOR 1mW
604nm:REO LSTP 2mW
594nm:Rigel 3mW ∙ LG PGL3C 15mWpk ∙ Lasos 7512 3mW ∙ CNI MGL3 58mWpk
589nm:CNI PGL3C 106mW ∙ CNI PGL3C 85mW
561nm:CNI PGL3C 30mW(41pk)
556nm:CNI PGL3C 20mW(22pk)
544nm:JDS1675P HeNe 2mW ∙ REO LHGR 2mW ∙ Lasos 7786 2mW
532nm:PGL3C 150mW(180pk) ∙ PGL3C 578mWpk ∙ PLC 440mWpk
515nm:JDS 221420GL ArI 30mW
510nm:52mW DG#2 ∙ 50mW 26650 DG
488nm:Nlx DPSS 7mW ∙ JDS 2214 ArI 40mW ∙ JDS FCD488 DPSS 25mW
ML:MG 65A106025 ArI ML 115mW
476/480nm:Nichia Diode 28mW
473nm:PGL3A 45mW(80pk) ∙ PGL3C 110mWpk ∙ PGL3C 95mWpk ∙ RPLB-25 60mWpk
465nm:DTR NDB7676 2.03w
458nm:JDS 2214VL ArI 8mW ∙ JDS 2214VL ArI 12mW ∙ RHD Diode 1.7W
452nm:Osram SM 47mW
445nm:Yob 1410mW ∙ Polaris 156mW ∙ PGL3C 1200mW ∙ DTR-EHG 32650 2136mW
405nm:Yob 630mW ∙ Qfox 750mW ∙ JETL PLC 780mW
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:00 PM #78
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

You can't justify Stupid, and I wish some people would stop trying to do that.
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:09 PM #79
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coherent Light View Post
You can't justify Stupid, and I wish some people would stop trying to do that.
Never Argue with a Stupid person, they will bring you down to there lvl and beat you with experience
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Old 01-28-2011, 01:23 AM #80
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Default Re: FAA: Laser incidents soar, threaten planes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krogith View Post
Never Argue with a Stupid person, they will bring you down to there lvl and beat you with experience
As Hemlock Mike would say: "Dump their rotting carcasses into the ocean"

lol
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