Did I do good?

Benm · Nov 23, 2015

To classify something as an attack, there has to be intent from the attacker. If had some motive or plan to blind use using that laser, there would be, but there seems no evidence of this at all.

Of course the laser-wielding guy is not in the clear here: What he did wrong is, as far as i can see, is reckless endangerment. This could be prosecuted as a separate crime if need be, though i'm not really sure if it would stick.

Legally the problem is that you have no right to use violence in self defense if you can easily ensure your safety by other means easily available. This would even apply to someone randomlingly waving a gun around where you had an easily available opportunity to get behind a concrete wall without being seen doing so (imagine passing by a doorway seeing some idiot waving a gun through the window in a door).

One good opportunity you have here is to agree with the other guy not to press any charges. You forego reporting reckless endangerments, he foregoes reporting rrobbery, assault or vandalism. Considering noone was hurt here this would by far be the best approach for the both of you, even if he demands you compensate him for the cost of the broken laser (which would be a civil case you have no chance of winning otherwise).

tuskiomi · Nov 23, 2015

Benm said:
To classify something as an attack, there has to be intent from the attacker. If had some motive or plan to blind use using that laser, there would be, but there seems no evidence of this at all.

Of course the laser-wielding guy is not in the clear here: What he did wrong is, as far as i can see, is reckless endangerment. This could be prosecuted as a separate crime if need be, though i'm not really sure if it would stick.

Legally the problem is that you have no right to use violence in self defense if you can easily ensure your safety by other means easily available. This would even apply to someone randomlingly waving a gun around where you had an easily available opportunity to get behind a concrete wall without being seen doing so (imagine passing by a doorway seeing some idiot waving a gun through the window in a door).

One good opportunity you have here is to agree with the other guy not to press any charges. You forego reporting reckless endangerments, he foregoes reporting rrobbery, assault or vandalism. Considering noone was hurt here this would by far be the best approach for the both of you, even if he demands you compensate him for the cost of the broken laser (which would be a civil case you have no chance of winning otherwise).

I don't mean for this to be an ad homeim, i do respect your opinion and i even love that you're giving persepctive on the situation. but your bio says you're from the netherlands. How familliar are you with US laws?

VisibleGreen · Nov 23, 2015

tuskiomi said:
How familliar are you with US laws?

I was just realizing the same thing. I think he's wrong on this topic. If you had an opportunity to grab someone waving a gun around recklessly then you should most certainly take the chance to snatch it.
You may have saved a few people getting blinded that day by taking that guys laser.
I may be acting over dramatic but the point is you can never know for certain. We aren't mindless automatons and can think for ourselves as well as perceive potential hazardous situations. We should protect our fellow man and feel free to is all I'm saying.

Benm · Nov 24, 2015

The legal differences between NL, EU and US are indeed a factor.

There are some pretty big differences in legislation that applies to business, but the principles of criminal justice actually are pretty similar.

The example of waving around a gun would be vastly different as gun ownership is pretty much banned in most european countries, and even if you have a permit to own one you're certainly not allowed to display it in public.

When it comes to things in public like what constitutes assault, robbery and such legislation is fairly similar. Also, self defense when it comes to physical harm is comparable, though defense of property is an entirely different matter (you cannot just shoot trespassers or even home invaders in europe, really).

One major, and in your case beneficial, difference is that in the US one generally does not prosecute minor cases if the victim doesn't want to. In most european jurisdictions a crime will be prosecuded mostly at the descretion of the DA. There are some methods to counter the DA not prosecuting crimes you are a victim in, but there really is no way you can prevent it as a victim, even if the whole process somehow makes it worse for you.

tuskiomi · Nov 24, 2015

Benm said:
The legal differences between NL, EU and US are indeed a factor.

There are some pretty big differences in legislation that applies to business, but the principles of criminal justice actually are pretty similar.

The example of waving around a gun would be vastly different as gun ownership is pretty much banned in most european countries, and even if you have a permit to own one you're certainly not allowed to display it in public.

When it comes to things in public like what constitutes assault, robbery and such legislation is fairly similar. Also, self defense when it comes to physical harm is comparable, though defense of property is an entirely different matter (you cannot just shoot trespassers or even home invaders in europe, really).

One major, and in your case beneficial, difference is that in the US one generally does not prosecute minor cases if the victim doesn't want to. In most european jurisdictions a crime will be prosecuded mostly at the descretion of the DA. There are some methods to counter the DA not prosecuting crimes you are a victim in, but there really is no way you can prevent it as a victim, even if the whole process somehow makes it worse for you.

Let's compare.
In the US:
Tresspassers can be wounded while in the act only if they clearly have intention to threaten life, not including that of pet. Wounding them should always be non lethal and for the sole purpose of stopping the criminal.
Assault is a crime committed by simply seemingly preparing for battery. That's a misdemeanor in itself.
Battery is inflicting damage on someone that is usually not permanent. 90% of the time, if someone is charged with battery, they're also charged with assault
aggravated battery is what dickhead would be charged with should he have gotten the laser in someone's eyes. It is a felony, so the government will try you at their discression, and if charged, will take away many of your rights.

InfinitusEquitas · Nov 24, 2015

Let's also not forget that state laws in the US vary drastically state to state. For example in Texas you are well within your rights to shoot an intruder. In fact you're even within your rights to shoot an intruder onto property that is not your own.

In NJ by comparison, you have a requirement to retreat, even in your own home, if you can.

(It really doesn't help matters that we have states that are larger than most european nations, and there are usually at least 2-3 applicable hierarchies of law - city, county, state, federal.)

In this case, at the very least what tuskomi experienced could be prosecuted as either aggravated assault and battery - that there was no permanent harm done is irrelevant. Further charge of menacing, disturbing the peace, etc,. can be piled on.

We're all playing armchair lawyers though... tuskiomi I suggest you consult with a lawyer and go from there. Even if you end up being charged a couple hundred for a consult (some lawyers will charge for consult, some want, it varies) it might be very worth it in the long run.

Benm · Nov 25, 2015

The differences between US states can in some cases be larger than those between european countries, depending on the subject. This would apply do things like defending your home, property or perhaps even health.

The legal basis for it, however, is often the definition of 'proportional response'. In most US states it would not be considered proportional to shoot some for just walking across your land with no obvious malicious intent.

If you were to compare US and EU legislation, i'd suggest comparing legislation of new york to that of western europe. By no means identical, but where in comes to criminal justice quite similar apart from the punishments (what can get you jailed in NY will get you a fine in the EU, and sometimes vice versa).

Marco Polo · Dec 2, 2015

If the school fines you 200 dollars and forces you to actually pay it, just do 200+ dollars worth of damage to school property to make it even. F*** them.

No, it's not a nice thing to do, but serious, f*** those ignorant rejects.

Benm · Dec 3, 2015

Where does the $200 figure come from?

If you actually destroyed something worth $200 or did $200 damage to something this would be reasonable, but it seems like a very nice round number that probably does not match any repair or replacement bill.

In case it is something written in the terms and conditions you could contest it legally. This would be the case if it were a 'fine' to the school for causing a disturbance or something like that. They can attempt to do so, but if you can prove their actual costs were lower than that, you could offer to reimburse true damages and get your way in court.

I'd seek legal advice on this though, since it varies wildly on jurisdiction.

In some states, and in most of the rest of the world, stipulations are in place that you cannot gain monetarily from offences. That is, as a victim you can only demand whatever you lost in monetary value but not more than that. To put that simply, in case i damaged your car, i'd be liable for up to it's market value, not for the cost of repairing it to how it was if that exceeds market value.

tuskiomi · Dec 3, 2015

Benm said:
Where does the $200 figure come from?

If you actually destroyed something worth $200 or did $200 damage to something this would be reasonable, but it seems like a very nice round number that probably does not match any repair or replacement bill.

In case it is something written in the terms and conditions you could contest it legally. This would be the case if it were a 'fine' to the school for causing a disturbance or something like that. They can attempt to do so, but if you can prove their actual costs were lower than that, you could offer to reimburse true damages and get your way in court.

I'd seek legal advice on this though, since it varies wildly on jurisdiction.

In some states, and in most of the rest of the world, stipulations are in place that you cannot gain monetarily from offences. That is, as a victim you can only demand whatever you lost in monetary value but not more than that. To put that simply, in case i damaged your car, i'd be liable for up to it's market value, not for the cost of repairing it to how it was if that exceeds market value.

I don't know, here's what happened: I present my case to them. they try to scoop it under the rug method and tell me to pipe down. They seemed to have dropped the fine.
Prepared to drop the bomb, I put down the student handbook:

Theft/Property Damage
On occasion, property belonging to students, staff, visitors, or District 112 buildings is stolen
or damaged. Any individual implicated in a theft or destruction of property is subject to
questioning by school officials. Anyone found to be involved in a theft, in possession of stolen
property, or involved in property damage is subject to school consequences and referral to the
{city} Police Department.

and later in their handbook:

Laser Lights
The possession and use of laser lights is prohibited.

I told them that since they had already interogated me that I had no further business, and simply left for my next class.

The teache whose class I went to was and admin, so she knew I was suspended, but she laughed it off.

I've ignored the 3 attempts to get me down to the office during the time between classes (under the excuse that I didn't hear them). Thus if they want me now, they'll have to pull me out of class (which they never do because they hate to make a scene). for my student aide I'm assuming that i'll get no credit (which isn't a problem; i'm graduating without delay) thus i'm going to the library to continue other materials.

Benm · Dec 4, 2015

I guess the best solution is to just let it fizzle then - noone was seriously harmed, the material damage was very small, and it is in noone's interest to have any of it prosecuted to the letter of the law.

One thing that is interestig is that they specify 'laser lights' that specifically. Something inside me says you should get a bigass xenon short arc lamp and parabolic reflector to get revenge, but i guess that's not the best of ideas either

Laser Chick · Dec 4, 2015

"Something inside me says you should get a bigass xenon short arc lamp and parabolic reflector to get revenge"
If they ask you why you did that, tell them you wanted him to have a nice suntan for the holidays!

Benm · Dec 5, 2015

Output power: 1 hour of floriday sunshine every 10 seconds?

tuskiomi · Jul 21, 2016

I did do good.

:eg::necromancy::eg:

So, the after tale. I was stripped of all student aide privileges and put on to a free hour because this was my first 'infraction'.:crackup: I didn't need the credit anyway, and I think I'm doing better now. For those who are wondering, THIS was the laser my friend was selling to others, at a cool 50$ a piece. I could see why douchecanoe was angry. No fine was inflicted, and nothing else came of it. I honestly was happy with the outcome, I didn't want to scale it too much, as attention to the laser enthusiast hobby would also bring in new controversy, laws and whatnot.

InfinitusEquitas · Jul 21, 2016

$50 for that!? That's the bigger crime. Glad things worked out, though IMO you got somewhat screwed, and were justified completely in your actions.

WizardG · Jul 21, 2016

!!!!!! Even the $20 they're asking on that site is larceny! And 5.57 oz? Maybe with lead acid batteries. It's a $5 pointer with a 2$ star cap. And yes, you did good!

Did I do good?

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