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Old 12-05-2008, 08:38 AM #81
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Default Re: Aircrafts



Helicopters fly lower to the ground and are usually easier to hit (I WOULD NEVER). Planes fly high most of there time but are vulnerable when coming in to land or take off.
Pilots have claimed they could get retina damage because people where shining there lasers from the ground.... Not likely but they COULD get momentary distortion and when someone is flying a helicopter they need to have very good reflexes. From what I've seen people where hitting the craft several times with the laser. <-- a good indication that there was a very high probability that the person with the laser was not doing it on accident

If an aircraft truly crashes do to a laser then that is going a very bad thing for everybody. Its not if it happens it WHEN it happens.

The guy with the laser is either really dumb or has bad intentions. :P
The guy in that video here --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUpmLbkzyEI&fmt=18
Is a case of someone who was obviously doing it on purpose. >

Theres my 0.02 cents
Hope i don't start an argument.

--hydro15





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Old 12-05-2008, 09:19 AM #82
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Reading back through this topic a bit, I can't see pilots wearing gogles largly down to the fact half the instruments in the cockpit are illuminated in green.

But then the trouble with a green filter on the windows would be that runway lights are sometimes green, last thing you want is your instruments telling you there is a runway and all you can see is what looks like a rather badly lit duel carage way.
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Old 12-05-2008, 05:10 PM #83
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Default Re: Aircrafts

if you filtered out the green light the runway threshold lights and the taxiway lead off lights would be filtered out as well. you wouldnt be able to tell where the runway began or where to start turning to get off the runway. you might end up in the dirt. it would still be doable but the visual cues you are used to would be gone. also the plane i fly has the target approach speed bugged in green, as well as safe operating ranges for oil temperature, pressure, vibration, thrust rating, autopilot buttons have green lights in them indicating what mode is active, certain terrain features displayed by the EGPWS are green (as well as red), current heading is green, among lots of other things. There is a lot of red in the cockpit too: unsafe operating ranges for all kinds of engine operating parameters, warning systems (windshear, fire, EICAS warnings). There is a lot of red and green outside the cockpit too that presents vital information to the pilot: runway environment (end and beginning of the runway, and when you start to run out of runway), aircraft position lights (helps a pilot determine the direction of travel of other aircraft at night and determine who has the right-of-way), beacon lights, visual approach aids, etc.
Bottom line I guess is that red and green light can not be safely filtered out from a pilots vision via either goggles or windscreens. It just wont happen.
If it becomes too much of an issue the feds will simply outlaw laser pointers. Simple solution and I hope it does not happen.
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Old 12-05-2008, 05:32 PM #84
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Nordhavn --

Very interesting, thanks for the YouTube link. I have put a frame grab and embedded the YouTube video at the LaserPointerSafety.com news page (go to http://www.laserpointersafety.com/news/news.php and scroll down to the Nov. 8 listing).

The beam was waving around an awful lot. I know it is hard to hit a target at a distance but it did not seem as if the intent was to directly hit and stay on the helicopter. Or perhaps they were trying, but drunk or stoned! The situation would have been worse if the person was really capable. There would be more frequent hits.


The laser effect here looks remarkably similar to photos taken in the FAA simulator (see http://www.laserpointersafety.com/la...t-effects.html).

The center is not fully white, perhaps because this particular frame was not at the peak of the brightness. Note how the laser beam is not in the center but is already off to the side. So this is more of the camera sensor's "afterimage" effect. I don't know if the human eye would have a longer afterimage.

Does anyone have a good estimate of how high the helicopter was in the video?

-- Patrick
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:15 AM #85
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRMNmeyer
[quote author=lightfoot500 link=1225240665/60#77 date=1228423867]well LRMN,
I am a novice at this and dont have the expertise of the senior membors.
you didnt say how powerful your lase is.
bouncing off things like mirrors and glass they lose quite abit of power.
i think you would know it if you fried your eye.
i hit myself in the eye with a 5mw greenie bouncing off a window.
and it didnt do anything to my eye. *
BUT i know i wouldnt want to *get hit in the eye with a larger mw. *
I only own one laser... *looks at sig*

I'm somewhat worried that there may be a blind spot-it's on the edge of my vision, so I'm not really able to tell. This would effect my peripheral vision. I can't tell if anything is affected at this point, but it's nothing too serious. (At least it's not in the center of my vision, if at all)[/quote]
how come you didn't go for a check up? you're lucky if only your cornea is damaged. if deeper, it would be a permanent effect.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:23 AM #86
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ildadirect
Does anyone have a good estimate of how high the helicopter was in the video?
i would say up to 500 metres. it doesn't look very high. it must be a height where the helicopter is visible to the person shining the laser pointer, so it really isn't high.
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Old 12-10-2008, 06:05 PM #87
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Default Re: Aircrafts

I would be interested to know if any pilots or ex-pilots on the forum can shed some light on this, but it seems to me that unless a laser produces cockpit glare, it cannot affect a pilot, and a laser can only produce cockpit glare if the beam enters the cockpit.

Looking at the location of the cockpit of commercial airliners, it would seem that the beam can only enter the cockpit if the beam is near to the horizontal (the cabin window is raked backwards and the aircraft nose sits forward and below the window).*Thus a pointer directed upwards to the underside of an airliner would not enter the cockpit and thus poses no hazard. *

Or am I missing something?
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:11 PM #88
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidgdg
I would be interested to know if any pilots or ex-pilots on the forum can shed some light on this, but it seems to me that unless a laser produces cockpit glare, it cannot affect a pilot, and a laser can only produce cockpit glare if the beam enters the cockpit.

Looking at the location of the cockpit of commercial airliners, it would seem that the beam can only enter the cockpit if the beam is near to the horizontal (the cabin window is raked backwards and the aircraft nose sits forward and below the window).*Thus a pointer directed upwards to the underside of an airliner would not enter the cockpit and thus poses no hazard. *

Or am I missing something?
I made this same statement previously. You're not missing anything. The aircraft is only at risk of cockpit glare on approach. This is the only time the right angle can be achieved. Of course, helicopters are a different story altogether.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:24 PM #89
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrictlyBudget
[quote author=LRMNmeyer link=1225240665/60#78 date=1228442361][quote author=lightfoot500 link=1225240665/60#77 date=1228423867]well LRMN,
I am a novice at this and dont have the expertise of the senior membors.
you didnt say how powerful your lase is.
bouncing off things like mirrors and glass they lose quite abit of power.
i think you would know it if you fried your eye.
i hit myself in the eye with a 5mw greenie bouncing off a window.
and it didnt do anything to my eye. *
BUT i know i wouldnt want to *get hit in the eye with a larger mw. *
I only own one laser... *looks at sig*

I'm somewhat worried that there may be a blind spot-it's on the edge of my vision, so I'm not really able to tell. This would effect my peripheral vision. I can't tell if anything is affected at this point, but it's nothing too serious. (At least it's not in the center of my vision, if at all)[/quote]
how come you didn't go for a check up? you're lucky if only your cornea is damaged. if deeper, it would be a permanent effect.[/quote]
I haven't noticed anything wrong since it happened, and I'm getting an eye exam in a while. If there are retinal burns, they're not affecting me at all. I'm pretty sure that it just hit my eyelid, and some of the diffused light reflected on to my nose and that's what I saw.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:36 AM #90
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidgdg
I would be interested to know if any pilots or ex-pilots on the forum can shed some light on this, but it seems to me that unless a laser produces cockpit glare, it cannot affect a pilot, and a laser can only produce cockpit glare if the beam enters the cockpit.

Looking at the location of the cockpit of commercial airliners, it would seem that the beam can only enter the cockpit if the beam is near to the horizontal (the cabin window is raked backwards and the aircraft nose sits forward and below the window).*Thus a pointer directed upwards to the underside of an airliner would not enter the cockpit and thus poses no hazard. *

Or am I missing something?

ok i'll try:
a direct hit to the eyes, and/or cockpit illumination would be distracting, but the degree of distraction would depend on the intensity of the laser light which would be affected by the power of the laser and distance from the source. you wouldn't necessarily need cockpit glare to affect me, it would just depend on things like the intensity of the light, and was it in my eyes, or simply illuminating the cockpit.
the beam wouldnt need to be horizontal to enter the cockpit either. when flying the airplane it takes a stretch to see the nose of the plane. i have to sit up and bend forward some to see the nose and i cant see very much of it either. think sports car. i can't see the hood of my firebird when i am driving, but i can see the road three feet in front of the car. i am guessing here but i'll bet out the front of the plane i have at least 25-30 degrees of downward vision, maybe more. if i lean over and look out the side window i can see almost directly under the plane. if i am in a turn i don't even need to lean at all and i can see straight down, so a laser on the ground under the aircraft wouldn't be able to get my eyes, but it could light up the cockpit if it was strong enough. if it was in front of the plane he would have to be farther out, but if the laser was strong enough it could easily penetrate the cockpit.
go to youtube and type 'landing cockpit view. it should give an idea of what you can see.
it is hard to see very well in the video, but it gives at least an idea what a pilot sees on approach. just for reference the white lights leading up to the runway are about 3000' long and when the airplane says, "minimums" they are just crossing the end of those lights and have 3000 feet or so before they cross the beginning of the runway. you have a pretty good view up there.
hope that helps.
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Old 12-14-2008, 03:25 AM #91
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Default Re: Aircrafts

ok i paid more attention to the field of view from the cockpit today and here are my official observations:
when the seat is adjusted to the recommended height for landing you have about 20 degrees of downward view. that changes relative to the horizon though because the deck angle changes during the approach because of configuration changes (flaps and gear). fully configured for landing and at approach speed you are about 3 degrees nose up, maybe a little more, up to about 5 degrees depending on your flap setting.
however in level cruise flight at 35000 feet the auto pilot is on and i am usually reclined and cant even see the horizon.
so, if anyone wants to brush up on their trig skills you should be able to figure out some stuff.
carry on!
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Old 12-15-2008, 06:54 PM #92
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Thanks Joe. That's more or less what common sense suggests. Flashing a laser spot on the underneath of a plane flying overhead is harmless. But flashing a laser spot towards a plane at any angle close to the horizontal (say within 20 degrees) is potentially hazardous in terms of causing cockpit glare.

Not that I am planning on doing either ;-)

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Old 12-15-2008, 06:55 PM #93
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Presumably also if the plane is flying away from you, then even at an angle approaching the horizontal there is no risk?
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:43 AM #94
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^^ reported
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:25 AM #95
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidgdg View Post
Thanks Joe. That's more or less what common sense suggests. Flashing a laser spot on the underneath of a plane flying overhead is harmless. But flashing a laser spot towards a plane at any angle close to the horizontal (say within 20 degrees) is potentially hazardous in terms of causing cockpit glare.

Not that I am planning on doing either ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidgdg View Post
Presumably also if the plane is flying away from you, then even at an angle approaching the horizontal there is no risk?
No. It's a stupid idea under any condition.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:48 AM #96
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Default Re: Aircrafts

Quote:
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No. It's a stupid idea under any condition.
Yes, but let's hope he figured that out 2 years ago.
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