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Old 10-23-2009, 01:11 PM #161
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

IgorT , would it be possible to also add a median plot (average) of a typical 6x diode and the PHR? What about a median plot of a LOC diode just for comparison. I have read somewhere in these forums that someone got a classIV Red LOC as well.


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Old 10-23-2009, 01:16 PM #162
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

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Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
Firstly I don't know you , and you don't know me.
I am 34 y.o. with a wife and 2 kids, and not a noob in life by any means.

Secondly you are being disrespectful when I have not been towards you at any time.

Thirdly, I am probably a noob in this forum....
but in the past 2 weeks I have built like 15 red lasers, 2 phrs, 4 IR 780nm at 370-380mah for burning,
built a ttl controller board to attach a laser to my self-built cnc milling machine, and got a 3.2W (yes 3.2 whatt) 808nm laser to attach to my CNC machine.

Yes I am new to lasers but it seems that I can contribute and am so active that I have already handled stronger lasers then the average guy on this forum.
Just because I live in Italy don't discount me, and discriminate with your close-mindedness. In fact I was born in Bethesda (MD) and have a US passport just like you.
What the hell does you being Italian have to do with anything?
Until you have an 8X and or 12X diodes in your hands, your opinions are conjecture. You cant say anything for a fact. So get over yourself, shut up, and learn something from the people who actually invest the money and time to help further the hobby.

Why dont you sell your 15 lasers and buy a 12X so you can actually contribute something other than hot air.

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Old 10-23-2009, 01:29 PM #163
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

Again, I am American and Italian at the same time, and it really should not matter.
Now why do you think that my statements about the new revolutionary vibration dampening system is just my opinion? I linked a site with the information, it was given by Pioneer spokepersons, not by this noob as you like to define me.

It isn't LuxIgnis saying that these drives write faster because of a new vibration-dampening system it's Pioneer saying that Pioneer's 12x drives are capable of these speeds mostly because of this new system. Make a google search with these keywords "Pioneer 12x blue ray vibrations" and similar keywords and you will find the information yourself. Here you want to make it look like I came up with these "opionions" by myself. That's totally misrepresenting the truth.
I won't let a kid misrepresent my words.
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:39 PM #164
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
It's obvious that my observations have hurt somebody's expectations.
Really? Whos?



Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
I know that people want to have something to talk about... we'll see what the conclusion is. At the very best these are cherry-picked higher efficiency 8x diodes.
Are you saying you already know the answer for sure?



Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
To me there is already a clear indication of this, some other people like to take a long time to let the truth slowly sink in.... I don't really care what other people believe or want to believe. I like to approach things in a scientific way.
Great! In that case we'll understand each other marvelously..
So when will you start that approach?


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
About the driver question:
we know the ma going in the diode, but we don't know the voltage going in, so we don't know the total power in the diode.
5.7v at 300ma for example is different then 5.8v at 300ma or is it the same thing according to you?
Gah, my single diode plots show both current AND diode forward voltage..
My comparison plots either show Iin vs. Pout or Pin vs. Pout, if the Vf's vary too much.

Look at the attachment. See the pretty device i made just for the purpose of plotting diodes?

And this brings me back to my original question.. What does this have to do with the DRIVER?

Measuring the Vf of the diode requires a SECOND DMM. And that one is usually also calibrated by the factory that made it.

I still don't see where the driver comes into the equasion.

I use the pimped up "Diode Analyzer", which combines a driver and two DMMs (replaced by two DPMs and calibrated to my best DMM), others use an LM317 or Rkcstr's driver, which are both fine stable linear drivers, and both have absolutelly NOTHING to do with measuring diode current OR forward voltage.

DMMs do that.. Not drivers. (Except for mine, but that's a whole different story..) That's why people attach a DMM or two to the setup, before doing a plot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
If a diode is absorbing 300ma at 5.7v and another of the same kind is absorbing 5.8v at 300ma then the power going in the diode is different, and the power output, assuming the same efficiency would be different as well.
It is possible that some diodes like to work at a higher voltage compared to others and comparing the outputs based solely on ma going in isn't exactly fair, it would be best to compare the optical output levels at known watts IN the diode. That way we could even know the efficiency in percentage for every single diode.
And that's preciselly the reason why in another thread i suggested we start making Pin vs Pout plots to compare diodes of different types, if their Vf's vary too much.

Otherwise, diode Vf's vary quite a bit even among the same diode model.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
Therefore if a driver is working at the limit, or above the indicated limit, it is possible that they can't supply the voltage that the diode would like to get in a reliable way.
Say a driver rated at max 5,5v could probably make it do up to 5,7v, and an Identical one could get up to 5,9v, it's within the tolerance of the resistors used.
Sure, but it won't affect the results in any way..

If a driver is supplying 300mA and the first DMM is showing this, the forward voltage of the diode will be PRECISELLY what the forward voltage of that diode is at 300mA (and at the diode's temperature at that moment).
And the second DMM will be perfectly capable of measuring that Vf!

If a driver falls out of regulation and can't supply the voltage the diode needs for a certain current, the first DMM will NOT display 300mA, but a lower, dropping current, impossible to raise any further.

The DMMs will reveal there is a problem, and even if the person making the plot was an idiot, and didn't understan what it all means, they couldn't possibly proceed with the plot until they gave the driver enough voltage, for it to do it's work.


So you obviously don't really understand what you are talking about, and resistors and their tolerances have absolutelly nothing to do with it.

Wait, or did you want to say that the driver (when dropping out of regulation) will still give the diode 300mA but at a lower voltage than the diode usually wants at 300mA (when the driver is working properly)? BTW, this question is important, so i can figure out if i understand you correctly!



Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
Why not using a regular LM317T when making diode comparisons?
The voltage requirements of these diodes would be comfortably inside the IC's working range, and the results would be more reliable too.
Umm what now? Instead of what? Instead of Rkcstr's driver? If driver dropping out of regulation is your argument, the 317 will drop out much sooner.

And no diode is outside the comfortable working range of either IC..


As long as a driver is provided with enough voltage to do it's job, any linear driver will do it perfectly, and again, it will ONLY depend on the DMMs and the LPM, to measure the numbers correctly.

NOT on the driver!


P.S. Here is a pic of my testing setup (Diode Analyzer and DMM), just as i was done with the 203BK diode...
Please ignore the fact that my LPM has a damaged front label, i have to make a new one, but in the meanwhile it still measures with 1% accuracy.



EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
Just because I live in Italy don't discount me, and discriminate with your close-mindedness. In fact I was born in Bethesda (MD) and have a US passport just like you.
Oh, you're from Italy? You're my neighbour - i'm from Slovenia... Incidentally, the diode i was plotting in the attached picture went to a good friend from Italy.
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Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205-francog-8x-plotting-complete.jpg  
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:46 PM #165
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

Sorry for the thread jack men. I'm done arguing with this know it all.
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:57 PM #166
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

...ok, I am sure you are doing the graphs correctly, but the first one that was posted, comparing apples and oranges wasn't right.
I am not saying that the diode will "suck" the same ma if it hasn't reached it's working voltage for that power absorbtion... that's silly.
Ultimately it depends on the person making the plot I suppose if everyone making the plot has your equipment etc.
When I was saying about the driver problem it was before you got involved, yesterday, when I saw that people started comparing apples and oranges, and posting stupid meaningless graphs. I said please use the same driver and lense to keep the same control, but your approach is even better than that.

I believe that you also intimately know that these diodes come out of the same assembly line as the 8x diodes, it doesn't matter if you want to shut me up.... I'll take it.
I am no electronics expert, I just know enough to get by doing my hobbies.
My area of expertise is different, I am a microsoft network engineer, and my hobbies are radio controlled airplanes, cnc machines, running, spearfishing, playing guitar. The lasers I got involved with less then a month ago because of my cnc mill...i I was exploring the possibilities. Although if my memory serves me well, I remember forking out something like 400$ for one of the first pulsed 5mw green laser pointers in year 1999-2000, therefore I am less a noob then someone would like me to be.
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:59 PM #167
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

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Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
IgorT , would it be possible to also add a median plot (average) of a typical 6x diode and the PHR? What about a median plot of a LOC diode just for comparison. I have read somewhere in these forums that someone got a classIV Red LOC as well.
Yes, i have collected data on over 70 GGW 6x diodes and made plots of 61 of them so far, which is a very good statistical sample..

I posted it several times in other threads, but haven't calculated the precise average yet.

Once i finish with the 13 8x diodes, i was planning on making such plots, to show the progression of 405nm diodes.

Unfortunatelly my PHR data is not so well recorded or sorted, but i do have PHR diodes sorted by efficiency, and could plot an average one.


As for LOCs... You know, plotting diodes is a lot of work, especially if you're trying to sort them by efficiency, or look for a median...

I already made a plot comparing an 8x and a LOC, but it needs some corrections before i can post it. You also have to know, that unlike 405nm's reds don't shoot up in a straight line, but start bending more and more down, the further you go - they have a "knee"....


Class IV LOC? The furthest i have reached with any DVD writer red was 320mW.. I could have squeezed a little bit more out by using another lens, but a LOC at over 500mW? The knee prevents them from being pushed beyond a certain point - if you try to go further you mostly just increase the heat created, while the power increase becomes less and less, the further you go...

We do have LOCs at 500mA+, but not at 500mW+.. Reaching that kind of power in red would require a FAC corrected multimode diode i fear..
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:19 PM #168
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

well this particular LPC-815 got to 510mw and it survived , here's the thread:
Freak LPC-815 laser
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:27 PM #169
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
...ok, I am sure you are doing the graphs correctly, but the first one that was posted, comparing apples and oranges wasn't right.
That is true. The conclusion "very telling" was funny considering that the 8x graph used a plastic lens.

And you were right - an inferior lens DOES influence the angle of the plot..


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
I am not saying that the diode will "suck" the same ma if it hasn't reached it's working voltage for that power absorbtion... that's silly.
Good... It was a trick question. I wanted to see if you know how drivers work, or more specifically, Ohm's law (i wanted to see if you think a diode can be set to the same current at a different voltage - sorry, had to make sure)...


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
I believe that you also intimately know that these diodes come out of the same assembly line as the 8x diodes, it doesn't matter if you want to shut me up.... I'll take it.
Why should i want to shut you up?
I myself said that 12x diodes could theoretically be "hand-picked" high efficiency 8x's.. I also said, that those diodes could in theory be rated for a higher power, since their higher efficiency means they produce more of it at the same current, while surviving just as long as lower efficiency 8x diodes...

But it was just one idea. I didn't say that's the final answer. There is not yet enough info for a final answer... In fact, usually there never is...


If you want to propose a theory, come up with data, good reasons and links! I'll consider it no more and no less than any and all other possibilities.

But until then you're just repeating yourself...

And no, i do not know that 12x's are the same model as 8x's. I can't know that for sure. Not from one graph, not even from many!

I once compared two diodes that were clearly from different manufacturers, but their power ratings were the same - a 100mW CW / 200mW Pulsed Nichia diode and a GGW 6x diode.... The resulting power plot varied a little, while their Vf overlapped perfectly.

If i had nothing else to judge from, but the plots, i'd say they are one and the same diode, because GGW 6x's themselves vary in efficiency more than those two did. The diode also looked the same as a 6x. But then again, so does a PHR, so that doesn't mean a thing..

The ONLY clue that the diode really is from another manufacturer was it's completelly different aspect ratio - it had the roundest beam i have seen from any 405nm diode....


My point is, that we do not yet have nearly enough data to come to any conclusions...

People have to test more 12x diodes. The threshold current HAS to be measured! Actually, Ith should probably be established BEFORE people buy more 12x diodes, just in case...


But the only real test would be killing a 12x diode alongside an 8x diode of the same efficiency... If the 12x is the 150mW CW/300mW Pulsed diode, it should survive longer...



Otherwise, let me ask you this.. So far we only tested ONE 12x diode. And it came out almost inline or slightly above the highest efficiency 8x diodes.

But what if the next few plots show even higher efficiencies? What if Dave got a low efficiency 12x with his first purchase? Look at how much 8x's vary...


- If 12x's are their own diode model, they will have to vary just as much, only in their own range....
- If 12x's are "cherry-picked" 8x's, they would vary much less, and around the point of very high efficiency 8x's.
- If 12x's are simply the same diodes as 8x's with no special treatment, we should find some as low as the lowest diode in the comparison plot, if we test several...


It should be clear to you by now, that i always consider every possibility there is, and don't just go believing one without a good reason. In fact, often even when i do have good reasons to believe one theory, i just call it the most likelly explanation, while still considering other possibilities.

All i want is to find out what diode 12x drives use... And at this moment, there simply isn't enough information available to come to any conclusions, i'm afraid...



EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxIgnis View Post
well this particular LPC-815 got to 510mw and it survived , here's the thread:
Freak LPC-815 laser
Well, someone must have been very lucky to find a diode like that. On the other hand, they are so cheap, that i keep setting them to ridiculous currents.. But i didn't know they can reach that much...

In the past they have been pushed to 400mW when force cooled with TECs.. 500mW+ is new...


Otherwise, "survived" is not the correct expression.. It just hasn't died yet..
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:58 PM #170
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

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In the past they have been pushed to 400mW when force cooled with TECs.. 500mW+ is new...


Otherwise, "survived" is not the correct expression.. It just hasn't died yet..

I once pushed a LOC to 586mA's in my Ice Box TEC build just to see what the output was with a Meredith glass lens.

It was before I had my Coherent PM5200 meter, so I got an initial reading of 395mW's with my optical meter, but it settled at 365mW's.

Here's the post with pictures from 1/08:
Open Can with TEC (20' Match Light Video pg. 5)

That diode still lives in my red Ice Box! It is at 450mA's now, and putting out 316mW's througth Meredith glass... (I would consider it only a normal efficiency LOC)
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:29 PM #171
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

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I once pushed a LOC to 586mA's in my Ice Box TEC build just to see what the output was with a Meredith glass lens.

It was before I had my Coherent PM5200 meter, so I got an initial reading of 395mW's with my optical meter, but it settled at 365mW's.

Here's the post with pictures from 1/08:
Open Can with TEC (20' Match Light Video pg. 5)

That diode still lives in my red Ice Box! It is at 450mA's now, and putting out 316mW's througth Meredith glass... (I would consider it only a normal efficiency LOC)

Hmm, nice... I remember your ice-box, altho i'm not sure i saw this particular thread...

Otherwise, at 450mA i usually have good luck with personal LOC's... Recently i'm setting LCCs to 520mA for fun...

But this one time i hooked up an open can directly to my PSU with only a capacitor in between, set the current limit to 0.6A and slowly raised the voltage, till the current limit light came ON.

I wanted to kill it cos it was wedged in the module someone sent me at a horrible angle, but was surprised, when it lasted almost preciselly 24h....


Now that LOCs are so cheap, i should do some cycler experiments with a few... Would be nice to know how reliable they are at 420mA or if there is even room for more play...

Altho in one rare unusual case, i lost a LOC at 341mA after only a few minutes... No idea how that happened, it was a weird micro host with bad contact to the AixiZ, and i had no room to add extra caps on top of the FlexDrive, while the contacts may have been interrupting, which can cause bad behavior on behalf of the driver...
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:29 PM #172
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

I hate it when I post something and it ends up as the last post on a page, that way when I post a followup or correction no one reads it.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:35 PM #173
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

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I hate it when I post something and it ends up as the last post on a page, that way when I post a followup or correction no one reads it.
I know what you mean. I guess the only way would be to make a new post.
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:17 PM #174
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

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I hate it when I post something and it ends up as the last post on a page, that way when I post a followup or correction no one reads it.

Well, when i edit posts, if some time has passed in between and other posts written after it, i also doubt anyone's gonna notice it.

But at least if someone new comes and starts reading it from start to finish, they won't get confused, because you corrected it...


In any case, it was an honest mistake..

I too was used to testing 6x's with plastic lenses, and now i can't directly compare that data to 8x's, without making assumptions about the power increase (assumptions, since it varies with wavelength), or replotting diodes, but the majority of the 61 i plotted are gone, with only the low efficiency ones left...

The new lenses bring a completelly new way of thinking with them, and it can clash with the old habbits...

It'll get even more complicated once we have several good glass lenses at our disposal, but at least between broadband AR coated glass, the differences in percentage are fixed...
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:38 PM #175
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

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Well, when i edit posts, if some time has passed in between and other posts written after it, i also doubt anyone's gonna notice it.
Heh, the funny thing is I corrected myself within five minutes, yet an entire day later people are still getting confused.. I suppose people are seeing the graph, then immediately jumping to the last page or something.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:14 PM #176
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Default Re: Pioneer 12X Blu-Ray-- BDR-205

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Heh, the funny thing is I corrected myself within five minutes, yet an entire day later people are still getting confused.. I suppose people are seeing the graph, then immediately jumping to the last page or something.
I know what you're saying, man. That's the reason I increased the number of posts per page on my User CP.
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