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Old 12-30-2011, 05:39 AM   #1
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Default EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

This is a very helpful & informative info link from Pangolin/Lasorb.
Many pages of info all DIY builders NEED to know.

Go forth and kill no more (or hopefully a lot less!!)


http://www.lasorb.com/02_we-destroyed-hundreds.htm
Lots of pages once you get there-Dont forget to take the quiz and NO CHEATING!!
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Last edited by hakzaw1; 12-31-2011 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Sorry, but that doesn't seem to be as much of an "informative info link" as it does a sales pitch. In fact, each of their "reviews" of common ESD protection approaches is basically put forward as a way to say "this is not a good approach, buy our product instead"

Is there really any info at that site that will allow us to "go forth and kill no more", without buying their products?

Thumbs down. Not on their product, but on their site being put forward as an info resource. It's a sales site. If they gave us a hobbyist circuit, or something similar we could DIY, I'd feel differently about it being proposed as a knowledge resource.

EDIT: Sorry, I'm cranky tonight.
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Last edited by rhd; 12-30-2011 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
This is a very helpful & informative info link from Pangolin/Lasorb.
Many pages of info all DIY builders NEED to know.

Go forth and kill no more (or hopefully a lot less!!)

https://www.pangolin.com/orders/lasorb.php

Lots of pages once you get there-Dont forget to take the quiz and NO CHEATING!!
Yeah I got to agree with RHD...
It looks more like this Thread should be in the Companies
or Sales sections....
This is not a Tutorial or Help & Repair.....
Sorry Hak... I don't see it relevant to this section....

Jerry
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

If I were building an expensive build, I wouldn't mind incorporating a lasorb into the build.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
If they gave us a hobbyist circuit, or something similar we could DIY, I'd feel differently about it being proposed as a knowledge resource.
Here is your resource for cheap ESD and transient protection, forget pangolin:

Transient Voltage Suppression, TVS Diodes, Automotive Circuit Protection - Littelfuse.com

Go buy a 0.25 cent Transient Voltage Suppression diode with clamping voltage slightly higher then your diode's Vfwd. (bipolar or single, doesn't really matter) and solder it to your laser diode. (Ive been using thier SMAJ series, works great and has a variety of voltage ranges to select from, bieng in a surface mount package thats only a few MM across, makes it ideal for that.) If you are so inclined to, you can add an RC snubber if you really wish to. (although I don't see it too nessasary for low powered systems)

Ive been using these diodes in my designs, and hell, the whole damn electronics industry too, these inexpensive suppression diodes are all too common (more applications then I can name, from consumer electronics to industrial equipment)

http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Da...Diode_SMAJ.pdf

From what I understood, a lasorb is just a fancly packaged varistor and a anti-parralel diode(dont have time to read thorugh pangolin's site, so if Im wrong there, feel free to point it out), while varistors are great for suppressing surges at higher powers (Eg: mains surges), they have a slower responce time then TVS diodes, but no worries, you can always buy TVS diodes at higher powers. As per the anti-parralel diode? Go find any rectifier diode and solder it as so. (will give you the same reverse bais protection so long the forward voltage of the diode is lower the then the reverse bais voltage of the laser diode, which im sure it is, even the 1N4007 series of rectifier diodes have <1Vfwd.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BShanahan14rulz View Post
If I were building an expensive build, I wouldn't mind incorporating a lasorb into the build.
Why pay more then you have to though? Isn't the point of production to drive the cost down, not up?

Im not paying 8$+ for some fancy packaged device that does the same fucking thing that a 0.25 cent component can do.

Cheers

Last edited by GBD; 12-30-2011 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBD View Post
Why pay more then you have to though? Isn't the point of production to drive the cost down, not up?

Im not paying 8$+ for some fancy packaged device that does the same fucking thing that a 0.25 cent component can do.

Cheers
Ahmen!

I'm so sick of hearing people complain about "everbody always wanting to get something for nothing". Honestly, it's often vets that spout this mantra ad nauseam.

I agree with the perspective that people shouldn't be expecting to get something for nothing, but one of the core defining features of a hobbyist community is that they try to find more affording ways for non-professionals to do some of the cool stuff professionals do at a cost they can afford, either through DIY, or by sourcing analogues that are less pricing.

GBD:
I'm not familiar with TVS diodes at all. But if you would give me some guidance as to appropriate SMD parts from Digikey for each of RED/BLUE/BR diodes, I'll whip together a tiny little PCB and get it fab'd in the January 5 DorkBot order. I can either just give the PCB design itself to the forum, or do a small run of 20 or 30 and shoot them over to one of the forum sellers like Clif or Moh at cost. If these are really like $0.25 each, then I could probably put a bunch together in a free hour once the PCBs arrive, toss them in Clif or Moh's direction (if they're interested) for like a buck a piece, and then I'm sure either of those members would be able to sell them through their store at super low cost.
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Last edited by rhd; 12-30-2011 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
Ahmen!

I'm so sick of hearing people complain about "everbody always wanting to get something for nothing". Honestly, it's often vets that spout this mantra ad nauseam.

.
I hope thats not the tone I gave off (didn't quite understand your post), I have no issues with someone making a profit from a product, thats just how it works. What I do have a problem with, when there are blant, right-in-your-face products that will do the same thing the more expensive product does, but at fractions of the cost.

IIRC thats called competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
GBD:
I'm not familiar with TVS diodes at all. But if you would give me some guidance as to appropriate SMD parts from Digikey for each of RED/BLUE/BR diodes, I'll whip together a tiny little PCB and get it fab'd in the January 5 DorkBot order. I can either just give the PCB design itself to the forum, or do a small run of 20 or 30 and shoot them over to one of the forum sellers like Clif or Moh at cost. If these are really like $0.25 each, then I could probably put a bunch together in a free hour once the PCBs arrive, toss them in Clif or Moh's direction (if they're interested) for like a buck a piece, and then I'm sure either of those members would be able to sell them through their store at super low cost.
Not a problem, Id be happy to help.
The theory behind these lasorbs as I see it, is just a TVS diode and an anti-parralel rectifier diode for reverse protection, both function on very basic electronic theory, so if you are intested, we can talk over PM and I will explain in detail.

Im sure you know yourself how bulk quantaties work, that 0.25c part can quickly become, much, much less.

Last edited by GBD; 12-30-2011 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBD View Post
I hope thats not the tone I gave off (didn't quite understand your post), I have no issues with someone making a profit from a product, thats just how it works. What I do have a problem with, when there are blant, right-in-your-face products that will do the same thing the more expensive product does, but at fractions of the cost.

IIRC thats called competition, which is how a capitalist economy works.
No no no! I was agreeing with your perspective. My comment was aimed in support of what you said, not against it. Elsewhere on the forum I constantly see the perspective being regurgitated over and over and over again that "everyone is looking to get something for free", as if the whole world (or at least the whole laser community) were made up of a bunch of spoiled children looking for a handout, who deserved a reprimand for it. I think that perspective is nuts (even though sometimes we do see some obnoxious "I want a 1W Green for $23" demands).

I was showing my support for your comment that there's no reason to pay more than you need to

100% NOT criticizing your post!
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Last edited by rhd; 12-30-2011 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:39 PM   #9
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Oh, my bad, I misunderstood the post

Still, yeah..
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:37 AM   #10
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Hope the grouchies are gone
++seems that many ARE killing a lot of diodes

I am not expert like all you (think you are)

But if you pay 50 to100$ for a diode
$8 seem little to protect it

most all the Pros use these in thier PJs
They must be stupid like me --uh?
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Last edited by hakzaw1; 12-31-2011 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:44 AM   #11
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
Hope the grouchies are gone
++seems that many ARE killing a lot of diodes

I am not expert like all you (think you are)

But if you pay 50 to100$ for a diode
$8 seem little to protect it
Grouchies are gone!

And it motivated us to get off our arses and do some "innovation" (haha, not so much innovation, as it was GBD sharing his already-existing knowledge with me).

Came up with this design:


It's 10mm in diameter, and it just slips right onto the diode leads. It shouldn't interfere with mounting a driver onto the diode leads poking through the top, or with soldering wires onto the diode leads and then into a driver. I've even added two through-hole wirepads so that you can attach wires to the "Protector" itself (instead of soldering to the diode's leads twice).

Using a reverse polarity protector diode, and a TVS. This revision will work for RED or for BLURAY. The end user just places some solder across a solder bridge to select between the two.

It costs about a buck ($1) to make. I'll get 20 or so done up, and then send them off to some forum vets with scopes to check out for solid data. Assuming it works as envisioned, I don't mind taking a day to pop out 100 of these and pass them along to the "net" of community sellers (at basically cost) to toss in with their customer's purchases (hopefully with not-terrible markup on their end).
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:58 AM   #12
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Thats great-- but most here have no fricken idea about most of all that stuff.
Send me some and I will sell them-- nobody else offered any & AixiZ gave me a discount on 20- so drag me out in the ditch and shoot me!! yall get off my thread
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2 B&W 473nm 5/6mW lab
JETLRS1.3W&1.2WMGL-H
638 180mW ttl mimi lab (av. 230mW)
405 100mW ttl mini lab
445 300 mW ttl mni lab ^AixiZ^ all for a lumia PJ
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:09 AM   #13
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Ya for sure - if they work, and they're this inexpensive, then it's a no brainer to have as many people as possible using them

I know that I rarely think about this type of diode protection.
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455nm 2400mW Ninja Mk III
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495nm 15mW DTH-N1
505nm 38mW DGH-N1
520nm 230mW Ninja Mk IV
532nm 460mW "Dragon of Yore"]
556nm 21mW PGL-III-C-556
2X nm 175mW PGL-RG Tri Colour Red+Green
589nm 70mW PGL-III-C with Clicky Mod
594nm 5mW Rigel-6 | 594nm 5mW GLP
632nm 1mW "PortaHeNe"
635nm 900mW Ninja Mk IV
658nm 315mW "Space Ray"

WTB / LOOKING FOR
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:21 AM   #14
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

.......
I have no answer as to why these and laserbugs get used so much on DIY labs quad builds etc.on PL and Lasershowsforums
no mention there of other cheaper ways to protect

you would think that nobody would use them but... you are wrong
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:26 AM   #15
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
.......
I have no answer as to why these and laserbugs get used so much on DIY labs quad builds etc.on PL and Lasershowsforums
no mention there of other cheaper ways to protect

you would think that nobody would use them but... you are wrong
In the projector field, there seems to be a bit more of a focus on the "visual appearance" of the internal guts. This is not a critique. Rather, I think the difference probably stems from the fact that our pointer builds are generally sealed up, whereas projectors are something that you really want to see the guts of.

Thus, a true DIY approach (soldering a TVS across leads) doesn't look as appropriate in a projector. But the appearance might be just fine inside a pointer.

There's also some relativity at play. We frequently drop $150 on a pointer build, both those projectors are often several $k investments. I can imagine that if you had $1,000 tied up in a machine, you'd think nothing of tossing another $8 bucks at something that looked cooler.
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:38 AM   #16
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

a lasorb and laserbug would not fit in pen or most handheld host lasers.
I think mainly lab builders will want these. I like the ability to swapout a diode without a soldering iron. makes testing WAY easier to.

The info at the Lasorb site about ESD is informative just disregard the sales pitch there. I suspect not all got 100 on the quiz//maybe?
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:49 AM   #17
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
most all the Pros use these in thier PJs
They must be stupid like me --uh?
I never insulted you nor called you stupid, I was just pointing out another cheaper approach of protection.

If I where to adhere to your argument though, the fact that I use TVS diodes must make me stupid, makes computer designers stupid, makes motor drive manufactueres stupid, make automotive engineers stupid make (insert billion other electronic related material here)... and so on so forth.

I can tell you right now that a crowd analogie is not very effective here, as Im not just suggesting some random piece of equipment with a psuedoscientific approach, Im going by what is an industry common, and has been proven to work in applications that far more demanding then laser projectors, and some which definatly require just as much if not more protection and design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
But if you pay 50 to100$ for a diode
$8 seem little to protect it
While in that logic it would make sence (like RHD pointed out earlier with the projector analogie), I still ask, why bother spending more then you have to? Im sure you could put the extra money towards bettering your projector elsewhere or whatever you wish to do. Granted its your money and you are to use it as you see fit, but that doesn't excuse the fact that others should know of the alternative rather then let one company monopolize a device at whatever price they wish to pull out of thier ass. Hence competition and consumer choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
a lasorb and laserbug would not fit in pen or most handheld host lasers.
I think mainly lab builders will want these. I like the ability to swapout a diode without a soldering iron. makes testing WAY easier to.

The info at the Lasorb site about ESD is informative just disregard the sales pitch there. I suspect not all got 100 on the quiz//maybe?
Thats another reason why I like TVS, I can literly solder the thing onto the diode's pins. plenty of room there. While true, some parts of thier site is informative about ESD, however it is (obviously) baised towards thier product, Ive yet to see a store that promotes the products of others above its own. most of those stores don't stay in bussiness very long. So I'll agree with you there, sift out the baised content and you might learn something if you are completly new to the concept of ESD however a part of research is to aquire information from multiple sources, then logically formulate your own conclusions.

At the end of the day, you have to realize that Im not here to shit on your thread with baseless acusations and pseudoscience. I just demand to know why as a consumer why aren't more cost effective and practical alternatives aren't openly accepted and discussed, rather then get slammed down while pangolin flexes thier laser muscles for everyone to see.

Sounds alot like Lasercommunity and their horse blinds set only on wicked products. Id hate to see the forum come to that.

Cheers.

Last edited by GBD; 12-31-2011 at 04:06 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:41 AM   #18
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

I just went back and reread my OP.

I inadvertanly posted a different link from the one had wanted to post.

I didnt know til just now that I had linked the order and price page.

If you will please see the link I meant to share you may cut me a little slack.

If nobody read any of the other stuff there I would have not cared.

I honestly did not post it to sell my 10 lasorbs. I did not know it even existed until last nite.


I learned some new things reading that link but sadly not enough to fully understand your post GBD- but I never claimed to be a wiz ..Im not the dullest knife in the electronics drawer but for sure not the sharpest. So I agree with all you said..hopefully some day I will understand it.
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Last edited by hakzaw1; 01-02-2012 at 07:15 PM. Reason: grammer and spelling
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:52 AM   #19
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

I don't know why, but I'm just super-skeptical that there is anything in a Lasorb that is a non-standard component. When you read their website, it sounds like they're phrasing things (especially descriptions about their product) to direct you away from any specific knowledge of what's inside.

I'm sure they work - but I'm also sure that they don't contain anything that couldn't be sourced from Mouser/Digikey for one-tenth of the price.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:30 AM   #20
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Yeah, that site seems very strong on marketing, and weak on benevolent info. The quiz is not very useful, especially as the situations seem very contrived. Who is going to attach a long copper braid to the inputs of a laser diode except only in the most temporary of circumstances? The different ESD protection approaches are a little more useful, but are generally simplistic or assume that someone will not do some more research into appropriate ESD protection--especially considering the cost of a LASORB.

I think LASORBs are probably just a variant of this ESD protection circuit Sandia National Laboratories investigated for preventing ESD from accidentally triggering laser-diode ignition systems:

http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/acces...003/032100.pdf

It provides protection against even severe human body generated ESD (25kV, 120A peak), the same kind of EDS the LASORB company purports to prevent. It combines a TVS as well as RC circuits and transistor gating to prevent transients shorter than 7.5us from arriving at the diode. The document is a more useful diode protection document because it goes over what exactly goes into protecting a device against ESD, such as gating current for durations longer than ESD lasts (1-2us or so), while still being useful for active switching. Even the operation of the protection circuit sounds a lot like the LASORB's operational description.

The next time I place an order I'll get some of those parts and do some tests. PHR-803Ts are so cheap these days that we can use those for the test diode since 405nm diodes are pretty sensitive.

Last edited by Bionic-Badger; 12-31-2011 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 01-02-2012, 07:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

I appreciate all the comments here. I can see a big need for DIY ESD protection. I, however, completely lack the skills and time to go that route. Pangolin seems to be a very savvy company promotion-wise. They apparently sell a lot of Lasorbs. No doubt they have the largest share of the lasershow software market. I have met Bill Brenner twice and he is a hard guy to not like. I truly wish when growing up I had gotten into Heathkits and learned more about electronics instead of building go-carts from lawnmower motors. Cant go back and change that. shoulda..coulda...woulda.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

it's better now, since kits are cheaper. I remember when I was a kid I picked out a little blinky LED kit out of a catalog. $30 for two alternating red LEDs.

About 2 years ago I bought a variable pulse rate stroboscope, including flashtube and pot and project enclosure, for $15.

I say go for it. It is a good stress reliever too

back on topic, this is how it is with everything. You can go out and learn it yourself, or just buy a product that does what it needs to for a bit more money. I see nothing wrong with the business.

What I do see is a lacking of information about what exactly we should be using to protect our diodes. Everybody says use a capacitor, but I doubt that a lasorb is just a capacitor. Never seen people say "Oh, just throw a TVS and rectifier on that sucka'."

I'm glad to hear that TVS are used widely for esd protection, perhaps they are harvestable components from other devices? Or are there too many different variants with too many different parameters?
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

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What I do see is a lacking of information about what exactly we should be using to protect our diodes. Everybody says use a capacitor, but I doubt that a lasorb is just a capacitor. Never seen people say "Oh, just throw a TVS and rectifier on that sucka'."

I'm glad to hear that TVS are used widely for esd protection, perhaps they are harvestable components from other devices? Or are there too many different variants with too many different parameters?
TVS are widely used in the industry indeed, but the varaince in parts and application is definatly huge, like I said earlier, Ive seen them used from computers to industrial VFDs that drive 800 horse motors. The sheer range of application makes it a bit unsuitable as a part to extract from a specific product.

That is more or less like asking what appliances you should gut to get a specific valued resistor or a capacitor from. This makes it cheaper and easier to simply order the part with your exact design specs in mind rather then to try and harvest it. This can't be said about everything though, like our beloved Crapio diodes, but I think we can already call those parts application specific.

Regarding the anti-parralel rectifier in addition to the TVS, I think it might be even better to employ Schottky diodes instead of rectifier diodes. Main reason comes to my mind is the responce time can be increased, noting that rectifier diodes have a recovery time to worry about if they are subjected to repetative transients. schottky diodes on the other hand, have no recovery time at all, there is nothing to recover from in the first place from the nature of the diode, should yield a switching time well below and faster then rectifier diodes (<500pS for those smaller diodes, a few nS for the higher power ones). Aside from that rapid responce, these diodes have an even lower forward voltage then thier rectifier counterpart, which is even nicer.
So it makes me think that a TVS/schottky would be an even more potent mix then just a rectifier diode.

Or, you can have an active controlled version of the above which employs the circuit mentioned in bionic badger's post, in addition to TVS, it is a superiour method, but the original point of a two part system in the first place was something compact that could be soldered right to the laser diode itself.

Makes me wish I had a DSO with logging capabilities instead of my POS analoge scope, I would love to see some responce/clamping time charts for myself rather then just what the part's datasheet and other assorted literature offers.

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Old 01-03-2012, 09:08 PM   #24
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

If you look at the diagram itself at the end of the document, the whole design is pretty small, not larger than a LASORB at least. Only the MOSFET might be large, and only because we need higher currents than the laser ignition system would. For a portable system a TVS is probably sufficient; the MOSFET was added to prevent catastrophic damage to the TVS causing an open rather than a short.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: EVER KILLED A DIODE?? see this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBD View Post
Makes me wish I had a DSO with logging capabilities instead of my POS analoge scope, I would love to see some responce/clamping time charts for myself rather then just what the part's datasheet and other assorted literature offers.
I have a HP 54111D oscilloscope and a HP 8118A pulse generator, if you're curious enough to have something measured, I'm curious too. I've only once heard of a TVS before, I think it was even on this forum.
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