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02-14-2017, 05:17 AM #1
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Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

I found this prism a few years back and was amused with its rotational effects. When rotated around the viewing angle, the image rotates twice as fast as you move it.
I couldn't find any explanation, possibly because I don't know the correct search term to find it.

I took the prism out of its housing to find out why today.
The base side is mirrored, and it's an isosceles triangle. 62.046 base angles and 55.908 at the peak.
I did some math, then I just shined a laser close enough to the side to see, and marked paths. Way easier.
Since theirs a mirror the traced paths shown make total sense on paper. But I can't wrap my head around the rotating 2x movement effect with the 2D representation.
Does anyone know what this is called or how it works?

Here's a link to a bunch of images of the effect.
Also have full sketch of prism, including light paths.

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Last edited by Presentteck; 02-20-2017 at 07:14 AM.

02-14-2017, 10:05 AM #2
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Presentteck I found this prism a few years back and was amused with its rotational effects. When rotated around the viewing angle, the image rotates twice as fast as you move it. I couldn't find any explanation, possibly because I don't know the correct search term to find it. I took the prism out of its housing to find out why today. The base side is mirrored, and it's an isosceles triangle. 62.046 base angles and 55.908 at the peak. I did some math, then I just shined a laser close enough to the side to see, and marked paths. Way easier. Since theirs a mirror the traced paths shown make total sense on paper. But I can't wrap my head around the rotating 2x movement effect with the 2D representation. Does anyone know what this is called or how it works? Here's a link to a bunch of images of the effect. Also have full sketch of prism, including light paths. https://m.facebook.com/pg/presenttec...ernal&mt_nav=1
I'm sorry I cannot open the image as my current connection blocks facebook. But this might be you are looking? Link

Edit: Here is also a nice pic:

Edit 2: Now I saw your pics - yes it acts as a Dove prism, look at the pic under c above - this is how it refract and reflects. Mirrored coating helps a lot and the top corner might be cut off in some versions of these prisms.
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Last edited by Radim; 02-14-2017 at 10:47 AM.

02-14-2017, 10:39 AM #3
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Radim I'm sorry I cannot open the image as my current connection blocks facebook. But this might be you are looking? Link Edit: Here is also a nice pic: (click the image for source and more information)
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02-14-2017, 11:11 AM #4
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BobMc That is a very interesting read. Really good question and answer.
Thanks.

BTW: To add - when thinking about the drawing of light paths - it seems to me that there are captured aditional internal reflections on the drawing, aren't they? I mean that the light travels as captured on figure c, but it might look from outside like in the drawing. That would explain significant diference.

Another self explanatory pic:

(source linked to the image as well)
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02-14-2017, 11:53 AM #5
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the light parhs. Going to have to reread. Very interesting through .
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02-14-2017, 12:02 PM #6
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BobMc I'm still trying to wrap my head around the light parhs. Going to have to reread. Very interesting through .
It is quite simple - just look at the latest image I posted. See original object - the light from it just enters the prism, refracts, than it reflects from mirrored side (with all the transformations like in the mirror) and refracts again to exit the prism in the direction it entered it. I would draw the R letter on the mirror side (or imagine it) and it is clear.

Edit: The mirror side is on the bottom on left pic and right on the right pic.
__________________
"Lasers are s3xy."
"That feeling when you see colours as their wavelengths."
"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."

Current collection:
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Last edited by Radim; 02-14-2017 at 12:03 PM.

02-14-2017, 04:12 PM #7
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

Thanks for the info. Moving in the right direction!
So I went with dovetail keyword search, starting to make some sense of the translative effects... vaguely

However, my prism is not a right angle prism which means it's not a true dovetail, and has more going on in it.
The light path is more complex, refracting many times.
and it appears that the exit side comes out a slightly larger image than the entry side. I tried to line up the beam parallel with the lines I drew, but this could be off. I should retest with a static, not in hand, pointer...

If I'm not wrong my prism acts as a translator and an image size modifier.

Check out this video on dovetail prisms I found.

02-14-2017, 04:24 PM #8
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

If you know material you could find refraction index of it and it might help you out to get true angles of refracted light inside. I still believe the optics happenig is quite simple.

It would be nice to put some laser through on longer exposure to see the beam on photo.
__________________
"Lasers are s3xy."
"That feeling when you see colours as their wavelengths."
"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."

Current collection:
405 nm | 500 mW | Wicked Lasers Lunar
445 nm | 3.5 W | Wicked Lasers Arctic
473 nm | 100 mW | Jet Lasers PL-E Pro (Review)
520 nm | 1 W | Wicked Lasers Krypton
532 nm | 100 mW | Wicked Lasers Evo
532 nm | 800 mW | Sky Lasers PL

532 nm | 1.4+ W | Optotronics RPL-II
589 nm | 50 mW | Dragon Lasers Spartan
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1 W RGB projector
(+ some laser pointers)

Laserpainting artworks:
Latest laserpainting: Soul in the Surreal world

Please use hashtag #laserpointerforums for laser related stuff when you post on social media to help us promote LPF. Thank you.

Last edited by Radim; 02-15-2017 at 01:44 PM.

02-15-2017, 07:42 PM #9
 Class 1M Laser Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Portland OR / SF Bay Posts: 139 Rep Power: 398
Presentteck
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

Ta-Da!

the more i look at this thing the more i think its an image corrector for a telescope, but just a guess.
after hitting the collector mirror it would need mirrored again to straighten it out, rotate to any angle, and this would slightly enlarge the image similar to a beam enlarger... but not enough to notice it on a single laser beam

uploaded images of housing, same album

cast number 8147, M937©, 814796. back plate: 1123355. bottom plate: 1010524, and a stamp seen in last two images of album

02-15-2017, 10:09 PM #10
 Class 3R Laser Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: European Union Posts: 1,079 Rep Power: 31234
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Presentteck Ta-Da! the more i look at this thing the more i think its an image corrector for a telescope, but just a guess. after hitting the collector mirror it would need mirrored again to straighten it out, rotate to any angle, and this would slightly enlarge the image similar to a beam enlarger... but not enough to notice it on a single laser beam uploaded images of housing, same album https://www.facebook.com/pg/presentt...56494047836021 cast number 8147, M937©, 814796. back plate: 1123355. bottom plate: 1010524, and a stamp seen in last two images of album
Awesome, it acts as dove when near base, but when moving up there are two additional total reflections happening. However the principle of image double rotation is same. Thanks for the video.
__________________
"Lasers are s3xy."
"That feeling when you see colours as their wavelengths."
"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."

Current collection:
405 nm | 500 mW | Wicked Lasers Lunar
445 nm | 3.5 W | Wicked Lasers Arctic
473 nm | 100 mW | Jet Lasers PL-E Pro (Review)
520 nm | 1 W | Wicked Lasers Krypton
532 nm | 100 mW | Wicked Lasers Evo
532 nm | 800 mW | Sky Lasers PL

532 nm | 1.4+ W | Optotronics RPL-II
589 nm | 50 mW | Dragon Lasers Spartan
635 nm | 750 mW | Wicked Lasers Inferno
1 W RGB projector
(+ some laser pointers)

Laserpainting artworks:
Latest laserpainting: Soul in the Surreal world

Please use hashtag #laserpointerforums for laser related stuff when you post on social media to help us promote LPF. Thank you.

02-15-2017, 10:13 PM #11
 Class 1M Laser Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Portland OR / SF Bay Posts: 139 Rep Power: 398
Presentteck
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Re: Rotate prism 45°, image does 90° - why?

It does dovetail at the bottom
When in the housing that low of an angle is not used, the view port limits it within the range of the extra reflections.
Tried looking up the numbers, but no luck. Oh well.

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