Old 11-11-2015, 12:47 AM #1
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Default 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

I will ppal 10 bucks to someone who can calculate both the theoretical as well as give a good opinion on the likely divergence this diode will have when expanded to 100mm diameter using a PCX lens, any takers?

http://www.junktronix.com/ebay/prodd...r_ds_cl_ae.pdf

Money to be paid upon confirmation the figures are good so please show me how you derived it. I will pay 15 dollars if you just want me to donate it to the forum instead.


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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 11-11-2015 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:06 AM #2
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

There are some useful hints in the spec sheet for this:

Emitting dimensions W x H – 3 x 1 – – 3 x 1 – µm
and

Parallel to junction θ// – 9 – – 9 – degrees
Perpendicular to junction θ⊥ – 30 – – 30 – degrees

These figures are actually quite close for either axis, 30 degrees at a beam width of 10 uM or 9 degrees of beamwidth at 3 uM. Lets take the figure of 30 degrees at 10 uM to work on, forgiving the 10% difference with the other axis.

You will expand this beam from 1 uM to 0.1 meters, a factor of 100.000. If you used ideal optics that would reduce the divergence by the same factor, from 30 degrees to 0.0003 degrees, equivalent to 5.24 uRad.

This is a very small divergence, but it's what you could achieve from this diode with perfect optics (and a rather fat 10 cm beam). I doubt it is practially possible, but this would be your theoretical limit to aim for.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:06 AM #3
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

I like you Alaskan. Need my PP now?

-Alex
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:14 AM #4
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Alex, when is your birthday, I can send 10 bucks then. Benm, do I have my decimal points wrong? I thought .1 meters divided by 1 um was a much larger number. Edit, nevermind you did write 100.000 I took that to mean 100 carried out three decimal places when you meant 100,000! Your figures are much lower than I had, where did I go wrong with these calculations for the 3 um fast axis?

My earlier calcs on another forum no one answered:

Quote:
Is this how it is done? Divide the size of the expanded beam by the diode aperture or emitter size to determine the expansion factor, then divide the diodes raw output in mRad by the amount of expansion to get the expected divergence after collimation? For a fast axis of 30 degrees, I'm calculating that is equal to about 523 mRad , using that figure, the 3um size of the emitter and expansion when using a 100mm diameter lens, I'm showing an incredibly low amount of divergence for the fast axis, after collimation, am I correct that this calculates to .0156 mRad? What would the real world mRad likely be?
100mm divided by an emitter aperture of .000003 is 33,333. I took the 523 mRad (closer to 523.6) for the raw output angle and divided it by 33,333 to give .0156 mRad, did I calculate incorrectly? Any idea what the real world divergence would likely be with economy priced optics? I would be happy to achieve .1 mRad using a 100mm diameter PCX lens.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 11-11-2015 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:33 AM #5
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

You just missed his birthday, you got a whole year.

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Old 11-11-2015, 01:52 AM #6
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

have any body solved this yet??? if it not solve i'm joining in!!!!
this is similar to my physic homework for the Photonic/Lens& Optic/ Divergence Chapter.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:57 AM #7
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

If you can prove Benm made an error, please do!
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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 11-11-2015, 03:06 AM #8
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
You just missed his birthday, you got a whole year.

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Old 11-11-2015, 03:55 AM #9
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Remind me next year Alex

Due to their low divergence from having such small emitters, single mode laser diodes when expanded to even a one inch beam diameter can deliver relatively high amounts of power a great distance away, far more power than a multimode high power laser many times the output. For example; a 250mw (quarter watt) laser diode with a 1 x 3 um emitter expanded and collimated to produce a 1 inch beam diameter (although IR) produces a more intense spot than a 1.5 mRad 50 watt laser at over 600 meters distance (Although at 500 meters and closer, the 50 watt laser wins). At 100 miles distance the fast axis beam-width should only expand to 40 feet wide, a third of that for the slow axis. The real spot power at any distance further than 600 meters in this comparison belongs to single mode laser diodes when expanded to 25mm with their uber low divergence, not these high power multimode diodes using G2 lenses, as pretty as they are at relatively short distances which I also love.



From: http://tinyurl.com/divergence-calculator

To get the same low divergence I can get with one of these tiny emitter single mode diodes using a small one inch lens could require a lens 30 times the diameter when using a multimode diode, too big to put on a pointer, of course, if you could afford a lens that big. I found someone in China who can make a 24 inch diameter PCX lens for me at the low price of 10,000 dollars and that is with an error of 3 wavelengths, terrible!

Edit: Looking at the figures Benm gave in his post, I think he had the divergence right for the 1um emitter at .00524 mRad, but he expressed it as 5.24 uRad (same) when using a 100mm PCX lens. I had calculated this from info given to me last year by the owner of Junktronix, but I wasn't sure I remembered him correctly so wanted someone to verify it from scratch. Looks like I need Benm's PP addy now
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 11-12-2015 at 12:06 AM. Reason: I keep thinking of more to add for those seeking this info later...
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:57 PM #10
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Remind me next year Alex


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Old 11-11-2015, 08:45 PM #11
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Besides the factor of finding the perfect lens, a much bigger issue is the moisture in the air.

Any visible or near IR beam of light will be influenced by atmospheric conditions, the longer the distance the more energy loss and beam disruption.

I remember watching a documentary on our military laser development and they talked briefly about this issue, the short of it was what they sent out didn't look like a focused beam at all, but it impacts as a focused beam.

I know microwave towers are used for a lot of our aerial communications, but the bandwidth is much less than IR light, I wonder about the usefulness of mid to far IR?

Someone pm me a clue about a 4500nm diode, I wonder what difference in real world variable conditions this would make?

I know we are talking communications, but mil applications use the same principle, speaking of which the 4th gen HELLADS is now being tested, it's a direct type emitter unlike the firestrike that was a stackable set of plate amplified boxes to boost a seed beam, HELLADS is the read deal, I wonder what wavelength it is, oddly enough I can't find that info lol. Just a basic announcement.

Hellads Laser Completes Development | General Atomics Aeronautical Systems News & Media

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Old 11-11-2015, 08:57 PM #12
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

I don't know how much the atmosphere will defocus the beam or spread it, but here's a graph of the atmospheric transmittance for a wide spectrum of light including IR

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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 11-11-2015, 09:05 PM #13
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
Besides the factor of finding the perfect lens, a much bigger issue is the moisture in the air.

Any visible or near IR beam of light will be influenced by atmospheric conditions, the longer the distance the more energy loss and beam disruption.

I remember watching a documentary on our military laser development and they talked briefly about this issue, the short of it was what they sent out didn't look like a focused beam at all, but it impacts as a focused beam.

I know microwave towers are used for a lot of our aerial communications, but the bandwidth is much less than IR light, I wonder about the usefulness of mid to far IR?

Someone pm me a clue about a 4500nm diode, I wonder what difference in real world variable conditions this would make?

I know we are talking communications, but mil applications use the same principle, speaking of which the 4th gen HELLADS is now being tested, it's a direct type emitter unlike the firestrike that was a stackable set of plate amplified boxes to boost a seed beam, HELLADS is the read deal, I wonder what wavelength it is, oddly enough I can't find that info lol. Just a basic announcement.

Hellads Laser Completes Development | General Atomics Aeronautical Systems News & Media
1 - 2.4 um per the AirForce Institute of Technology.
The PDF File here

It looks like the used 1.07uM for this study though. It has to do with the Aerosols in the atmosphere.
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Last edited by Trendkilla254; 11-11-2015 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:31 PM #14
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Good info fellas, rep TK254, Alaskan I owe you a rep again LOL

For those reading who don't know 1um = 1000nm

Everything I keep finding favors 1550nm for free space and open air as well as fiber optics.

There may be a good value in surplus in this range as well.

Also 1550nm is a lot more eye safe from what I have been reading, but bandwidth will be less, it's an interesting study, I am very interested in the emitter/junction size and divergence, a compact eye safe leaf burner with a tight beam could be fun. Safety first as always.

Last edited by RedCowboy; 11-11-2015 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:25 PM #15
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

I had made that determination in the past too 1550nm was better, I have some diodes at that wavelength, but they are C-mount and not as easy to use in the hosts I'm buying. I may have a solution for that though, I recently purchased some 12mm copper rod and some copper disks, I can drill the disks to accept the rod and then insert the rod into a normal axiz hosts module hole to heat sink into the pointer head with. I also have some C-mount to G2 lens holders from RHD which can be used with the same copper disk, but I prefer using much larger diameter lenses for my pointers to reduce the divergence.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:28 PM #16
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Laser Diode 1310nm Sumitomo Laser Diode | eBay

There is so much stuff available, this says single mode, same kind of thing already mounted, I have also seen optics that are made to attach to fiber ends, I don't know if it would be less expensive though, I like to make my own everything as much as I can.
I may have to have some fun with some of this, but more power...always more power.

My other thought is background noise, a distant receiver won't need a perfect beam or as much signal strength if there is less background light of that wavelength. That may be another advantage of 1550 over 808.
But from what I have seen higher power 1550 is less abundant than 808.
Although emitter size being our point source matters more than output in this case, for data transfer LESS may be MORE.

Last edited by RedCowboy; 11-12-2015 at 12:12 AM.
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