Old 11-11-2015, 11:51 PM #17
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

TrendaKilla, I found this graph on page 39 of that document but don't understand what the coefficient scale exactly means, i.e. what a 1 or 10 does to the beam. What do you think? I have some 978nm single mode diodes, perhaps I would be better using these instead of 830nm, by the looks of this graph:



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Old 11-12-2015, 12:21 AM #18
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

I don't know but it's by a power of 10, wow.

Another thought on using more power with a wider spot is your alignment wont have to be as critical.
In a walkie talkie or portable temporary set up type scenario you would want wide spots with higher powers for faster tune ins.

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Old 11-12-2015, 12:56 AM #19
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Alex, when is your birthday, I can send 10 bucks then. Benm, do I have my decimal points wrong? I thought .1 meters divided by 1 um was a much larger number. Edit, nevermind you did write 100.000 I took that to mean 100 carried out three decimal places when you meant 100,000! Your figures are much lower than I had, where did I go wrong with these calculations for the 3 um fast axis?

My earlier calcs on another forum no one answered:



100mm divided by an emitter aperture of .000003 is 33,333. I took the 523 mRad (closer to 523.6) for the raw output angle and divided it by 33,333 to give .0156 mRad, did I calculate incorrectly? Any idea what the real world divergence would likely be with economy priced optics? I would be happy to achieve .1 mRad using a 100mm diameter PCX lens.
This 0.0156 mRad figure is 3 times what i ended up with, which is understandable because i used the figure for the slow axis for the larger width, while he used the figure for the fast axis on the lower width.

I believe i am correct here though, and you perhaps verify this to some extent by looking at a 445 nm multimode laser. You can clearly see that when using an ordinary lens, close to the laser the beam is thinner in one orientation. Looking at the dot at some distance (say 20 meters) you will notice that things are now the other way around. If you started with a beam that looked like a vertical | at the lens, the projected 'dot' will look like [====] (horizontal bar).

As for the base principe of beam expansion: With perfect optics you can trade divergence for diameter. If you expand a beam to 10 times its diameter, you will reduce its divergence by 10 times. This can be carried to the extreme case of 100.000 to 1 here for theoretical calculations. You will never achieve this with even the slightest imperfection in the optics, but that is hard to caculate unless the error is known.

With real world optics and 10 cm output aperture i think you could get around 0.05 mrad from a single mode diode (dvd/bluray writer sourced). Normally you would first collimate to a beam of say 5 - 10 mm diameter and then place a 10x or 20x beam expander so it's easier to align the whole lot.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:18 AM #20
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Thanks, and again for the explanation of why the rectangle output I'm observing changes by 90 degrees when viewed a distance away, I couldn't figure out why the beam did that before, now I see why, due to the divergence of that axis widening so fast.

I have been using the raw output of my laser diodes and letting the beam expand on its own using relatively long focal length PCX lenses to then collimate the beam, that way I don't have the extra loss of a small collimation lens followed by a concave expander lens. Seems you are telling me the beam is easier to work with by first collimating the output with a small lens, then following that with a concave expander and a PCX collimator. I haven't been having problems using a single long FL PCX lens to let the output expand and collimate my beams, so far, or am I not getting the best divergence that way?
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:59 AM #21
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Did you see the results Minamoto got with this compound expander?

6.5W -> 4.5W 450nm Cypreus IIIb reloaded with adapted 355nm Linos Beam Expander

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Old 11-12-2015, 02:34 AM #22
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Yep, that's why I was wanting to use a single mode 830nm laser diode, I have three of those Linos expanders but mine are made to work from 630 to 830nm, but now I'm thinking I better use my 980nm diodes. However, I don't have a nicely engineered and AR coated expander for that WL.

Edit addition: The Linos have such low loss, I can use them @830nm, but if I use 980nm I'm think I will use a simple PCX lens without a concave expander lens, just letting the beam expand with a long FL lens to collimate. I've been searching for single mode laser diodes up around 980nm on ebay with close to 300mw of power capability and they aren't cheap. If I could find a .1 um emitter in a single mode diode, that would reduce the diameter lens I need to achieve uber low divergence, as I want, but I don't think those are made. Most of the listings I find on ebay or aliexpress don't show the emitter sizes and when I search for data sheets I'm not finding them either.
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"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Last edited by Alaskan; 11-14-2015 at 01:57 AM. Reason: Always seeing a better way
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:40 AM #23
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I haven't been having problems using a single long FL PCX lens to let the output expand and collimate my beams, so far, or am I not getting the best divergence that way?
In theory it's absolutely no problem to use only one lens. Practially it is harder to get the diode the exact distance required from it and in the exact center position. A down side to a focus lens + telescope arrangement is that it produces more loss due to more elements in the path.

One problem with very low divergence lasers is how to actually align them: you can't really go for 'spot size across the room' or even reflected off a window giving you twice the size of the room (if your windows are reasonably flat, many are not).

A way about this for me is to use retroreflective traffic signs when there is noone on the road. Since i'm the 15th floor i have a view that gives me 100s of meters to about 1km away.


And for paypal donations: I'll accept one to go towards 'chinese laser roulette', if you seen any quirkily specced product on DX or such i'll give that a go to see what's going down!
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Old 11-13-2015, 07:00 PM #24
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Hey guys. This math is way to complicated.
This never fails: Divergence Calculator, Fail Proof
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Old 11-14-2015, 01:11 AM #25
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Hehe, i suppose it's right sometimes
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Old 11-17-2015, 01:51 PM #26
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

My math agrees with Benm. Of course, this relies on the assumptions the aperture is exactly 3Ám and you've got a perfect lens. Atmosphere increases scattering, but it does not increase divergence.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:57 PM #27
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

@Alaskan: That is above my level of expertise, sorry I didn't reply sooner. For some reason I was not checking my subscribed threads.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:07 AM #28
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

I built a beam expander for a PL520 single mode green diode and it sure does give a brighter spot at a great distance than my 1.4 watt NDG7475T laser diode, it's really cool how a low power 80mw single mode diode like this can not only compete with the much higher mutlimode diodes, but leave them in the dust how much more power you can spot at a distance with them.

Edit: I had to come back and report tonight we have a broken cloud layer at 22,000 feet and I was able to see a spot on the base of them using my little single mode laser diode. It was difficult to see, but when pointing at a hole in the clouds and back at a cloud I could clearly see a terminus spot appear each time, very weak due to the distance, but there.
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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 11-19-2015, 11:45 AM #29
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I will ppal 10 bucks to someone who can calculate both the theoretical as well as give a good opinion on the likely divergence this diode will have when expanded to 100mm diameter using a PCX lens, any takers?

http://www.junktronix.com/ebay/prodd...r_ds_cl_ae.pdf

Money to be paid upon confirmation the figures are good so please show me how you derived it. I will pay 15 dollars if you just want me to donate it to the forum instead.
Use this app. https://lightmachinery.com/optical-d...m-propagation/
You have to use two optical lenses. I suggest one negative lens and of course one pcx lens.
Ignore the slow axis. Input the fast axis
Ignore the lower emitter dimension. Input the high divergence
Convert the emitter size to millimeters size = 0.0000003mm and input that into the appropriate box.

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Old 11-20-2015, 05:58 AM #30
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

Thanks, I'm playing around with it now.
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Old 11-20-2015, 03:00 PM #31
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Thanks, I'm playing around with it now.
You're welcome. In the results the numbers to watch.

Spacing of the first optic from the diode is important. I would predetermine how far from the diode this first optic will be placed, then actually measure the greater diameter, or you could just go for some arbitrarily low value, the lowest this app allows is 0.001 or -1000

I did some playing around with it. I assume the lowest beam diameter at the first lens -1000 diameter
I used a -6mm lens spaced 5mm from the diode and the second lens +100 pcx is spaced 97.19mm from the first.
Divergence of 30 degrees
The results are
Beam diameter at the second lens is 5.49mm
Rayleigh Range ( length) is 14,295.81mm this is an important number. This number tells you how much the beam will expand within that range which amounts to 1.4 times its original diameter

Last edited by steve001; 11-21-2015 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 01-25-2016, 05:16 PM #32
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Default Re: 10 bucks via PP to the individual who calculates this for me...

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Thanks, and again for the explanation of why the rectangle output I'm observing changes by 90 degrees when viewed a distance away, I couldn't figure out why the beam did that before, now I see why, due to the divergence of that axis widening so fast.
I'll jump in this old thread. (Was not monitoring for a long time

If you observe what you write, the beam is not collimated - it is focused
Why?

The emitter size 1 um x 3 um (not exact numbers matter, but the ratio). You add a lens and want to get the smallest spot at a certain distance. In optical terms you are creating an image of the object (the emitter). The spot size is proportion to a magnification of the optical system (M). For simple lens M is equal ratio between distances from the object to the lens (s1), and the lens to the image (s2) >> M=s2/s1. [ All these distances go into a formula 1/s + 1/s2 = 1/f ]
Thus having the large divergence on a fast axis but a smaller emitter, the dimension of a focused spot is smaller compared to a slow axis. (Just look at high power blue spots)

Back to the real life - lens' aberrations, a diffraction of the beam create more problems in calculations of the spot size. Collimation -> focusing to infinity -> good luck with a turbulence in atmosphere. Nevertheless it can be solved - like in shooting the Moon.
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