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Old 10-12-2011, 06:03 AM   #17
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

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Originally Posted by ShortyInCanada View Post
BTW. Most of these cheap units are NOT legal for use in public. There are many regulations and conditions that must be met before they are legal outside of private usage. Be warned.
Do we have any laws in Canada that I have to worry about?
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

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Originally Posted by ARGLaser View Post
Do we have any laws in Canada that I have to worry about?
I believe Canada follows the same or at least similar laws as the US. Here is a little info for you:

To say that it is not legal to sell over 5mW lasers is oversimplifying the situation. I'll try to make this brief:

What we are talking about is what is known as hazard class and for the moment the only two we'll talk about is 3A (also called IIIR) and IIIB. A hazard class is determined by how much laser light could fit into a 7mm diameter hole (the width of the human pupil) at 10cm from the front of the fixture. If that number is over 5mW, the class is IIIB and it requires a license to sell and another license to operate. If it is under, then no license is required however in either case the FDA has to approve of that laser being sold to the public.

Therefore, if you take a laser like an ADJ Galaxian which might have 50mW or more inside the housing but the beams spread out super fast because of the diffraction grating on the front to make the "star" effect, it can be 3A and not require a license because the laser field is much too wide to all fit into the eye therefore making it safer. Take away that burst grating and you have a 50mW beam which would instantly make it IIIB. Scanning the beam does not count as making the field "wider" unless a whole lot of other stuff happens which jacks the price of the unit up into the many thousands of dollars. That's just the way it is.

Therefore, if you have 300mW anything and don't have a license to own them, you are committing multiple Federal crimes because you probably also imported them illegally (as in eBay) and each seperate use of the unit is a new infraction.

Google 21CFR1040.10 - This is the raw standard which governs the use of high powered lasers and tells you how they have to be built - pretty sure yours are not because I know this market very well and I don't know anyone who has a legal 300mW like you describe.

Google 21CFR1002.31 - Manufacturers have to keep records of their quality control checks to make sure the lasers are safe for use and keep those records in a way that can be inspected by FDA. That is why laser manufacturers are required to have a US presence so that those records can be kept domestically and someone can respond to service issues. Otherwise, how is the FDA going to inspect a thousand sheets of paper in Taiwan?

Here's the kicker:

Google 21CFR17.2 - If you scroll down to the bottom and look at 360pp (b)(1) you will see that the Federal fine for violating one of these sections is $1,100.00. You may also note that it is per violation, per person. Each day of ownership or use constitutes a separate violation so you are on the hook for some ridiculous amount of money. The good news, is that they can only fine you a maximum of $355,000.00 for a related series of violations.

Go to Regulations.gov and type in the name of the laser manufacturer. Actually read what comes up because a lot of the docs are customs stop orders and whatnot. The manufacturer has to have a license called a "variance" to sell their products in the US. If you can't find that here, you have illegal lasers and you have opened yourself up to a ton of liability and, worse, posted it on a public forum indexed by Google.

Good news is that the FDA isn't going to kick down your door and if you get rid of the lasers you will probably be fine because they really only have the resources to track down people who are currently breaking the law.



(this was quoted from a reliable source (X-Laser) on DJ Forums.

Last edited by Whiterob; 10-12-2011 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 10-12-2011, 03:10 PM   #19
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterob View Post
I believe Canada follows the same or at least similar laws as the US. Here is a little info for you:

To say that it is not legal to sell over 5mW lasers is oversimplifying the situation. I'll try to make this brief:

What we are talking about is what is known as hazard class and for the moment the only two we'll talk about is 3A (also called IIIR) and IIIB. A hazard class is determined by how much laser light could fit into a 7mm diameter hole (the width of the human pupil) at 10cm from the front of the fixture. If that number is over 5mW, the class is IIIB and it requires a license to sell and another license to operate. If it is under, then no license is required however in either case the FDA has to approve of that laser being sold to the public.

Therefore, if you take a laser like an ADJ Galaxian which might have 50mW or more inside the housing but the beams spread out super fast because of the diffraction grating on the front to make the "star" effect, it can be 3A and not require a license because the laser field is much too wide to all fit into the eye therefore making it safer. Take away that burst grating and you have a 50mW beam which would instantly make it IIIB. Scanning the beam does not count as making the field "wider" unless a whole lot of other stuff happens which jacks the price of the unit up into the many thousands of dollars. That's just the way it is.

Therefore, if you have 300mW anything and don't have a license to own them, you are committing multiple Federal crimes because you probably also imported them illegally (as in eBay) and each seperate use of the unit is a new infraction.

Google 21CFR1040.10 - This is the raw standard which governs the use of high powered lasers and tells you how they have to be built - pretty sure yours are not because I know this market very well and I don't know anyone who has a legal 300mW like you describe.

Google 21CFR1002.31 - Manufacturers have to keep records of their quality control checks to make sure the lasers are safe for use and keep those records in a way that can be inspected by FDA. That is why laser manufacturers are required to have a US presence so that those records can be kept domestically and someone can respond to service issues. Otherwise, how is the FDA going to inspect a thousand sheets of paper in Taiwan?

Here's the kicker:

Google 21CFR17.2 - If you scroll down to the bottom and look at 360pp (b)(1) you will see that the Federal fine for violating one of these sections is $1,100.00. You may also note that it is per violation, per person. Each day of ownership or use constitutes a separate violation so you are on the hook for some ridiculous amount of money. The good news, is that they can only fine you a maximum of $355,000.00 for a related series of violations.

Go to Regulations.gov and type in the name of the laser manufacturer. Actually read what comes up because a lot of the docs are customs stop orders and whatnot. The manufacturer has to have a license called a "variance" to sell their products in the US. If you can't find that here, you have illegal lasers and you have opened yourself up to a ton of liability and, worse, posted it on a public forum indexed by Google.

Good news is that the FDA isn't going to kick down your door and if you get rid of the lasers you will probably be fine because they really only have the resources to track down people who are currently breaking the law.



(this was quoted from a reliable source (X-Laser) on DJ Forums.
Those are all US laws.. If you are not using the laser in a dangerous way and not using it in public (and most likely even if you did a public show in the US) no one will care... Just like people who steal satellite... They don't go after the users they go after the vendors and people who make a big deal publicly.

Most likely if you use an unlicensed laser in a public event (if it's small) no one will bother checking if you have a license and most will assume it's all good since you're a professional.


EDIT: Canada doesn't have laser import laws like the US does.. I am sure there is some sort of body regulating the use of lasers for public events here but the laws are not the same. They can take your lasers if they think they have more power than is needed for the intended purpose but for a laser show 300-500 mW is in the low range and even US customs will usually let a laser show device pass... They are more worried about hand held portable pointers.
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Last edited by Guyfromhe; 10-12-2011 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 10-12-2011, 03:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

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Originally Posted by Guyfromhe View Post
Those are all US laws.. If you are not using the laser in a dangerous way and not using it in public (and most likely even if you did a public show in the US) no one will care... Just like people who steal satellite... They don't go after the users they go after the vendors and people who make a big deal publicly.

Most likely if you use an unlicensed laser in a public event (if it's small) no one will bother checking if you have a license and most will assume it's all good since you're a professional.


EDIT: Canada doesn't have laser import laws like the US does.. I am sure there is some sort of body regulating the use of lasers for public events here but the laws are not the same. They can take your lasers if they think they have more power than is needed for the intended purpose but for a laser show 300-500 mW is in the low range and even US customs will usually let a laser show device pass... They are more worried about hand held portable pointers.

Good to know.. Thanks.

here is a video of the laser I want to upgrade, actually looks fairly bright in this video, but it HAS to be pitch black with fog in the room to be able to see it. I am however concerned that even 40mW might be too high as the beam would be impossible to prevent from hitting peoples eyes.. Currently it is 10mW.


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Old 10-12-2011, 04:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

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Originally Posted by Whiterob View Post
Good to know.. Thanks.

here is a video of the laser I want to upgrade, actually looks fairly bright in this video, but it HAS to be pitch black with fog in the room to be able to see it. I am however concerned that even 40mW might be too high as the beam would be impossible to prevent from hitting peoples eyes.. Currently it is 10mW.

Video
All lasers work a lot better in the dark and you really can't see beams without fog (the higher powered ones will give a bit of a beam but it's not the same as with fog)

You don't want 40 mW to go into peoples eyes that's just not cool... Even 10 mW is twice the FDA "eye safe" power level... The fact that it's moving may help but I wouldn't count on it to keep people safe if you can't prevent it from going in their eyes.
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Old 10-12-2011, 04:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

So now do you see my dilemma? When there is even any background light, and not to mention my scanners lights etc. you really can't see the laser at all.. I love the beam patterns of this laser, but maybe it is just a lost cause due to the fact that being it goes vertical, ,it is going to get into peoples eyes and cause problems no matter how much it is refracted.. I am sure they specially designed it with the 10mW for a reason.
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Old 10-12-2011, 04:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

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Originally Posted by Whiterob View Post
So now do you see my dilemma? When there is even any background light, and not to mention my scanners lights etc. you really can't see the laser at all.. I love the beam patterns of this laser, but maybe it is just a lost cause due to the fact that being it goes vertical, ,it is going to get into peoples eyes and cause problems no matter how much it is refracted.. I am sure they specially designed it with the 10mW for a reason.
That was probably the max acceptable power for projecting a moving pattern into the audience? I dunno...

Why can't you point it up and outwards?
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:23 PM   #24
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

"I am sure they specially designed it with the 10mW for a reason."

I bet that they designed it to be on or just possibly slightly above the acceptable level. Anything you do to modify or upgrade it makes it a problem waiting to happen. See other postings about ALL the expenses that you risk from overexposing somebody. The biggest problem is that they might come after you months or years later and wipe you out financially. Not worth the risk in my books.

While the Canadian laws aren't on the books as being anywhere near the US versions, the Canadian legal system is much more flexible when it comes to pressing charges and prosecutions. At this time there is a lot of political pressure being applied to lasers and laser products from the US supporters. As a result more laser and related products are experiencing "difficulties" getting through Canada Customs. The beauraucracy can delay (or hold) things for indefinite times so while you weren't actually doing anything wrong they can keep you from having something for as long as they like.
So even though the US standards don't specifically apply to Canadian circumstances, as with many other things you are better off following the US guidelines. This also means that your products will be legal across the border if you have chance to travel down there.
But the best defense is to be well educated from the beginning. Look up as much as you can and read, read, read it all. Then read it again and again until it starts to `stick' and you know what it means.
Knowledge is power. And sometimes when Canada Customs has something and you can demonstrate enough knowledge and convincing authority about the subject in question they will give you the benefit of the doubt. You have nothing to lose but lots to gain.
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Old 10-13-2011, 06:40 AM   #25
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

From what I've read on these units from a loonggg time ago, they use a laser with either a large beam, or large divergence to keep them under the 5mW max regulation, essentially like putting 2 5mW beams together.

If you modify it in any way, it will no longer be FDA approved. Not to mention 50mW is way too much to re-approve it anyway

I don't live in the US, so I'm not exactly sure on all the regulations, but really if you're going to use higher powers, shine it over peoples heads. Higher powers mean you don't need it pointing directly at people for it to make a point.
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:44 PM   #26
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

For the record, no one "Pays" the FDA for approval. Its a free, but time consuming, process. If a FDA Staffer asked you to pay for anything, other then some specialized lab testing, you just payed a bribe.

CANADA has laser safety rules on a provincial basis and federal basis.

However the Federal ones have vanished off the Federal government web site except for the import restrictions and the pointer rules. I'm sure they have not been repealed, they just are so old they did not mke it onto the web. When i visited, the situation pretty much was, in the past: "Send us a letter telling us you do laser shows, and tell us how to reach you." More paperwork was needed if you audience scanned or went into airspace, but no where near intensive as in the US. I used to help a Canadian laserist friend do pro shows when I was in College. His regulators were very friendly. They once CLOSED 40 square miles of Toronto area airspace for him, no problems. That does not happen so easily in the US.

Steve

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Old 10-18-2011, 03:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

Well, i finally took it apart, and to my surprise it says on the housing that it is a 300mW laser. but it is diffused to produce a fat beam, which must lower down the amount of whatever that can get into the eye.. pretty interesting stuff these lasers are. Now too bad I thought I would try upping the power on it a bit and fried it haha. oh well, now it is really a toy for me to start doing my own laser mods to.. thinking maybe a blue laser (and obviously not going to use it in public anymore)
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:42 PM   #28
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

While you have it open can you post a few pictures of the insides ?
I'm always interested in seeing how others have packed the bits & pieces into a housing. Commercial applications can have some interesting solutions to common issues.
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Old 10-25-2011, 04:02 PM   #29
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

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While you have it open can you post a few pictures of the insides ?
I'm always interested in seeing how others have packed the bits & pieces into a housing. Commercial applications can have some interesting solutions to common issues.
I may be able to help out with pics. I to have the same laser and was interested in this project as well, though couldn't get much in terms of wiring help. I don't know why his laser would say 300mw, I have the same model and it says 10mw on mine. PICS! :










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Old 10-25-2011, 07:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

Awesome pictures there !
Sure is packed pretty tight alright.
Can't help but think that the airflow for cooling must be terrible. A much bigger and noisier fan would be used to keep everything cool by forcing enough air through all those small openings between pc boards and heatsink fins, etc.
Looks like the mirrors are subjected to a lot of dirt/dust build up too.
To be expected though considering the price point and fabrication methods.
I still like to see how they packed it in there though. Big difference between this and a home made unit.
Helped me with a few ideas towards my eventual home build projector.

Many thanks to you.
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Old 10-25-2011, 07:22 PM   #31
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

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Originally Posted by LSRFAQ View Post
For the record, no one "Pays" the FDA for approval. Its a free, but time consuming, process. If a FDA Staffer asked you to pay for anything, other then some specialized lab testing, you just payed a bribe.

CANADA has laser safety rules on a provincial basis and federal basis.

However the Federal ones have vanished off the Federal government web site except for the import restrictions and the pointer rules. I'm sure they have not been repealed, they just are so old they did not mke it onto the web. When i visited, the situation pretty much was, in the past: "Send us a letter telling us you do laser shows, and tell us how to reach you." More paperwork was needed if you audience scanned or went into airspace, but no where near intensive as in the US. I used to help a Canadian laserist friend do pro shows when I was in College. His regulators were very friendly. They once CLOSED 40 square miles of Toronto area airspace for him, no problems. That does not happen so easily in the US.

Steve
so just saw this is there know list of requirements to make projector "legal" in the U.S i plan on eventually making my projector (in progress) "legal" so i must just send them a letter? im a bit confused
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:49 PM   #32
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Default Re: Upgrading laser diode in "stage laser" (newb here)

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i plan on eventually making my projector (in progress) "legal" so i must just send them a letter? im a bit confused
Its allot harder than just filling out a piece of paper......It will end up being around 20-30 page report detailing every part of the projector....

Definitely not easy...
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