RGB/RGV ILDA on a budget

borgqueenx said:

can you also do the standard kaleidoscopic things with this laser projectors on ilda?
Are there shows to download and use for specific songs?

thanks

Click to expand...

That depends on the model and what is installed. You have to read the fine print, and on Ebay it can be confusing.

ILDA is a trade organization of laser companies.
It publishes voluntary standards for hardware, file formats, galvanometer scanner amplifier tuning, etc It stands for International Laser Display Association.

If Electrofreak was not so busy ranting, he could have told you that "ILDA", as your referring to it, is the pinout and signal level for the ILDA STANDARD DB25 connector that you need to hook a external controller box and software to, if you want to use more then what is built into the unit. Think of it as a expansion port if the projector has its own controller. Some projectors have no controller and no software built into the unit, so you may need to spend more money to make it work.

If you want to use the connector, you either have to spend money for a external controller and software, or spend lots of time and maybe 60$ or more to make the open source gear. Open source gear means you need to know how to solder and make cables, and read simple schematics.

Commercial software that is not buggy starts at 150$ and up with the cheap open source hardware, or 300-400$ for decent commercial software and a ready made controller.

The software runs on your PC, and for the most part, the controller hangs off a USB port, and talks to the projector via a "ILDA STANDARD CABLE"


Open source will let you load freeware artwork, but there are only a few shows using the artware made up for it that are already synced to music.

Commercial hardware/software that is worth buying will come with a collection of artwork and shows. The more you pay, usually the more you get.

There is a difference between shows and artwork. A "show" is the file that tells the controller when and how to display the artwork, or what artwork to put up if you press a button when running manual mode. Artwork is the file that tells the scanners how to move, artwork is the graphics. If you put smoke in the air, artwork defines the beam pattern.


Almost all Graphics and Abstracts are tuned for 30K scan speed at 8 degrees of angle, so you want the best scanners you can get, if your going to use the ILDA connector to connect to a external controller and run graphics.



30KPPS = the speed rating of the scanners under certain test conditions using the ILDA test pattern artwork. Lower numbers are worse, and these days, nothing less then 20K. Why? lower numbers (less then 20k) are cheaper because they remove the feedback part of the scanner amp that makes tighter graphics to sell for less. This is called "Open loop", and open loop is very outdated.

Since I am such a prick, I do not expect you to believe a word I type. So go over to PL and ask the same question and you'll get 6 replies reading about the same. The key to not getting flamed on PL is to introduce yourself in the lounge and tell PLers roughly where you live. If you do that, and some one lives close to you, you'll probably get a invite to visit and see some one else's gear, either at their home or their company. PL has a lot of older people, that older culture wants to get to know you.

Buy the most power and the best scan speed you can get, with ILDA connector so you can expand it. If you cannot afford to spend more on expanding, make sure the projector has a built in controller that does at least something. Even if that is there, you may need something that sends DMX signals to talk to it.

It hurts the resale value if you buy one with slow scanners or low power, as the power you can get for the dollar is always going up. Scanner speed is not increasing.

If you want to make money with the gear, you need at least a watt of green for small parties or bars, and much more then that for larger gigs, plus a fogger of some sort.

I'm not going to reward Electrofreak's behavior with a argument.
He fit in very well at Pl and was part of the "click" until something in him snapped. He is still a member and sends PMs.

Laser projectors can be a addictive, expensive, hobby.

Steve.

LSRFAQ said:

That depends on the model and what is installed. You have to read the fine print, and on Ebay it can be confusing.

ILDA is a trade organization of laser companies.
It publishes voluntary standards for hardware, file formats, galvanometer scanner amplifier tuning, etc It stands for International Laser Display Association.

If Electrofreak was not so busy ranting, he could have told you that "ILDA", as your referring to it, is the pinout and signal level for the ILDA STANDARD DB25 connector that you need to hook a external controller box and software to, if you want to use more then what is built into the unit. Think of it as a expansion port if the projector has its own controller. Some projectors have no controller and no software built into the unit, so you may need to spend more money to make it work.

If you want to use the connector, you either have to spend money for a external controller and software, or spend lots of time and maybe 60$ or more to make the open source gear. Open source gear means you need to know how to solder and make cables, and read simple schematics.

Commercial software that is not buggy starts at 150$ and up with the cheap open source hardware, or 300-400$ for decent commercial software and a ready made controller.

The software runs on your PC, and for the most part, the controller hangs off a USB port, and talks to the projector via a "ILDA STANDARD CABLE"


Open source will let you load freeware artwork, but there are only a few shows using the artware made up for it that are already synced to music.

Commercial hardware/software that is worth buying will come with a collection of artwork and shows. The more you pay, usually the more you get.

There is a difference between shows and artwork. A "show" is the file that tells the controller when and how to display the artwork, or what artwork to put up if you press a button when running manual mode. Artwork is the file that tells the scanners how to move, artwork is the graphics. If you put smoke in the air, artwork defines the beam pattern.


Almost all Graphics and Abstracts are tuned for 30K scan speed at 8 degrees of angle, so you want the best scanners you can get, if your going to use the ILDA connector to connect to a external controller and run graphics.



30KPPS = the speed rating of the scanners under certain test conditions using the ILDA test pattern artwork. Lower numbers are worse, and these days, nothing less then 20K. Why? lower numbers (less then 20k) are cheaper because they remove the feedback part of the scanner amp that makes tighter graphics to sell for less. This is called "Open loop", and open loop is very outdated.

Since I am such a prick, I do not expect you to believe a word I type. So go over to PL and ask the same question and you'll get 6 replies reading about the same. The key to not getting flamed on PL is to introduce yourself in the lounge and tell PLers roughly where you live. If you do that, and some one lives close to you, you'll probably get a invite to visit and see some one else's gear, either at their home or their company. PL has a lot of older people, that older culture wants to get to know you.

Buy the most power and the best scan speed you can get, with ILDA connector so you can expand it. If you cannot afford to spend more on expanding, make sure the projector has a built in controller that does at least something. Even if that is there, you may need something that sends DMX signals to talk to it.

It hurts the resale value if you buy one with slow scanners or low power, as the power you can get for the dollar is always going up.

If you want to make money with the gear, you need at least a watt of green for small parties or bars, and much more then that for larger gigs, plus a fogger of some sort.

I'm not going to reward Electrofreak's behavior with a argument.
He fit in very well at Pl and was part of the "click" until something in him snapped. He is still a member and sends PMs.

Laser projectors can be a addictive, expensive, hobby.

Steve.

Click to expand...

Is that you Steve, making a contribution to this thread?

It is? Well good.. then now it must be time to make a thread over on PL about how stupid the LPF community is.. that is what you do, isn't it? http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/showthread.php/12932-For-the-record..

And people say I'm an asshole..

LPF is far, FAR bigger than PL.. of course there will be a few really stupid people here who should NOT be allowed to play with lasers, and they always get dealt with in short order. PL has seen it's share too.. a certain DJ ringing a bell for you Steve?

You've got no argument with me Steve, in fact you've really got nothing at all to say to me. Trust me you don't. You could have left me out of that post completely if you were really wanting to avoid confrontation, but this is all the response you'll get from me. Do yourself a favor and give this a read:

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/showthread.php/12932-For-the-record..?p=171501#post171501

^Post of the year.

Remember, you made that thread, not me.. and things like that thread are PRECISELY what made me snap as you like to put it. Everything happens for a reason.

No body is doubting your knowledge. Borg, Steve is one of the most knowledgable members when it comes to this topic. So is Elektrofreak. and all my posts from the link ef posted were deleted LoL. PL members claim to be so elightened but i was attacked right away. i only had issue with steve. i was calm and well written. that is why i was banned and my posts removed.

borgqueenx said:

@elektrofreak: nice thanks.
Ok guys i know i need something expensive but reccomend me below 450 dollars shipped. Its only to see if i like it as hobby....like i saif i first wanted a projector from dx for 50 dollar... Then for 100 dollar something wi pth dmx. And now 450 dollar. Must already be pro stuff, compared with what i first wanted to buy right?

Click to expand...

Well, you'll be somewhat limited at that $450 price point.. It's very possible that you could get a small single-color projector and an Easylase DAC wihtin your budget if you buy the projector on ebay, but that would be about your only option. For direct software control, you need both the projector and the device that enables the computer to control it, the DAC.

I think that member drlava has a few easylase DACs for sale around the $150 range, and there are a few free software options that work with them..

Realistically, if you're just wanting to see if you'd enjoy the hobby, just using the projector's built-in DMX programs might work great for you.

Hidden costs.

The difference between debate and implentation is the guys who do implementation think logistics, not just armchair capability analysis.

You need 600++ dollars to start out with this machine

If I'm dragging this out in the field, I need:

Projector, 450$ plus whatever shipping
Chauvet OBEY10 DMX cpntroller ** for 70$ plus maybe 12$ shipping.
25 foot DMX cable, 9.95$ plus probably 7$ shipping
Fog machine, 400 Watt, noname crude but servicable, Walmart, 49$ + 7% tax.

450 + 82 + 17 + 49 = 600++ whatever the projector shipping is, plus two long extension cords.

You'll need a quart of aquafog mix two weeks down the road as the demo bottle with the machine is small (20$ more, on sale) Then a fan to distribute the fog. Then a bottle of distilled water to thin down the cheap juice so it will fly upwards instead of sinking (3$) Then a bottle of acetone (5$) to clean the fog residue off the projector windows. Then a bottle of vinegar, yes, vinegar to clean the fog heater tank when it jams up in a month. (4$)

A carrying case to haul it all, and some sort of gooseneck light to see the console in the dark. Some sort of stand to get it up where it looks good.

DMX is mainly for beam effects, thus At some point down the road, another 400$ to make it more useful, ie Phoenix basic or LDS with a Riya, Spahgetti with a Riya. If you want creme de la creme and lower learning curve time, go with 595$ for Pangolin FB3, and perhaps 20$ for the ILDA cable. That assumes you own a laptop.'

**, the Chauvet is stand alone, if you want the laptop to control it replace with Velleman K8072 DMX for about the same price.


Mean time between failures, If not in daily use, probably 1-2 years to when the repairs start.

Real sunk costs when done, some place upwards of 1100$.

(mandatory disclaimers: )
Don't breath the vinegar fumes when they exit the fogger, it will put you in the ER. Do that outside, too.
Lasers are a eye hazard.
Lasers drain your wallet.


Steve

Re: Hidden costs.

LSRFAQ said:

Mean time between failures, If not in daily use, probably 1-2 years to when the repairs start.
Steve

Click to expand...

Whoa...

I didn't think that a well built projector would need repaired even after a couple years...

I figured many of the components inside projectors have gone solid state, so I thought it was mainly the optics that would need a periodic cleaning.

Maintenance costs = something to consider!

In my experience lasers are never infallible.. and neither are galvos.. or any other part of even the finest projectors. They're precision devices, full of parts that could break... and they do once in awhile. But it's not like it's the constant concern that it used to be with gas and complex cavity DPSS lasers. Today's simple cavities used in most DPSS show lasers are pretty tough.. and diodes are very resilient in terms of withstanding physical stresses that might be encountered during transport. Still, you get premature diode death fairly often, and both types of modern commonly found show lasers are vulnerable to electronic issues in the various drive circuits that run them and their TECs.

In my mind, you just never know with lasers. They could be compared to people in that most of them are built well and live long happy lives, but we could all die at any age between 0 and 120.. or 0 hours and 10,000 hours for most lasers.

Galvos can fail, although the good European and American ones tend to hold up very well.. even the Chinese sets last for quite a few hours typically.. All the inner electronics have the potential to fail as well, so maintenance should always be factored in.

Re: Hidden costs.

Lifetime seems to be tied to four things: Temperature of the electronics, Bearing Quality, startup and shutdown surges, switching psu quality.

The enhanced failure of hot electronics is well known. Sticky bearings need more power to run.

I have a high power, low cost, recent DPSS on my bench right now. When I power it down I see a massive spike of green light. The driver is loosing the power to the control loop, from a lack of filter caps to keep the op-amps powered a bit after shutdown. I will add the caps that should be there in the first place. Some one went to great deal of trouble to make sure it has a good startup circuit, but the turnoff could easily kill it.

Little details like that start to add up.
Steve

heck i am close to 600 right now and i don't have my optic mounts made yet or software. yikes!!! i don't really consider the costs of maintenace though... each individual part is fairly cheap.

now when you guys talk about maintenace what exactly do you mean. are you supposed to oil or dry lube the galvos?

michael.

chipdouglas said:

heck i am close to 600 right now and i don't have my optic mounts made yet or software. yikes!!! i don't really consider the costs of maintenace though... each individual part is fairly cheap.

now when you guys talk about maintenace what exactly do you mean. are you supposed to oil or dry lube the galvos?

michael.

Click to expand...

Nah, there's very little of that kind of maintenance involved.. When I say maintenance it means keeping spares of everything around and the tools/expertise to make the repairs in the field. Of course that only applies if you're doing pro shows. For the casual user, simply keeping the interior and optics clean is sufficient. If something breaks, you just order a replacement for it and make the repair.

SpaceLas just sent me a quote for the RGBV Hammer(see link above)- 450$ plus 120$ to ship to Texas-- I responded --price to high-- said I would take one at that price if they swapped to 405 for a 445 and lowered the profit margin on the DHL shipping-- its about 20- 30+$ too high IMO>.

borgqueenx said:

Well im pretty good at defending myself with words so yeah...
I can listen to you about how that forum sucks, and to them who say you all suck.
I wont judge neither of forums, so im going to ignore the advise of "dont try to help them". I give them a chance. Il see soon enough if they are asses or not

Click to expand...

So how's your PL experience going.. Had enough of Buffo yet?

I haven't seen you make any comments in your thread that would lead me to call you rude and insist that you are making an idiot of yourself.. Everyone needs to start somewhere, but no one on PL gets that. If you're not ready to spend $10,000 at one of their buddy's shops then you must be a rude idiot, right?

Here's my advice to you: Buy whatever you can afford and have fun with it. No matter what even the cheapest Chinese stuff will be enough for you to determine if the hobby will be something you'll enjoy. You don't have to go all pro to find that out, unlike what Buffo, Stuka and a lot of those other guys will tell you.. At least you've got White-Light, who seems quite willing to answer your questions and give good explanations.

Just another case of a new person being ridiculed and mistreated because they don't have a ton of cash and they're just starting out. What a pathetic state of affairs.

The love for the hobbyist runs strong over there.

yeah i just read all of it.... borg is clearly saying what her budget is. they have the know how to get her something built in that range. crap or not.

michael.

but borg you are beating a dead horse. all your answers you've gotten here at LPF is the best and cheapest answers you will get.
just look at all the parts you need:
galvo set
op amp
sound card DAC
2 flex mods
1 green module
LOC
Violet/blue
software
dichro mounts
dichros
optional another mount and front surface mirror.
power supply
case (kind of optional)

ignore what the parts are and look at it like this... With all the advice you have been given, do you reall think you can internationally souce all these parts. and thats not including all the shipping costs.
ignore the PL people. get a cheap premade kit. use it in a hookah bar and then decide if its something you want to upgrade later.

michael.

^Very true..

ElektroFreak said:

So how's your PL experience going.. Had enough of Buffo yet?

I haven't seen you make any comments in your thread that would lead me to call you rude and insist that you are making an idiot of yourself.. Everyone needs to start somewhere, but no one on PL gets that. If you're not ready to spend $10,000 at one of their buddy's shops then you must be a rude idiot, right?

Here's my advice to you: Buy whatever you can afford and have fun with it. No matter what even the cheapest Chinese stuff will be enough for you to determine if the hobby will be something you'll enjoy. You don't have to go all pro to find that out, unlike what Buffo, Stuka and a lot of those other guys will tell you.. At least you've got White-Light, who seems quite willing to answer your questions and give good explanations.

Just another case of a new person being ridiculed and mistreated because they don't have a ton of cash and they're just starting out. What a pathetic state of affairs.

The love for the hobbyist runs strong over there.

Click to expand...

Lol you are right about that. But i do understand they Dont want to reccomend me shit. But i need shit to start with, then il maybe buy a toilet
They are not willing to give advice on cheap options so far, because it is shit anyway, even if i ask for the best shit

And chipdouglas i dont want to build myself. I probaly learn the inside by screwing the housing of and maby upgrade galvo's over time.