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Old 07-19-2009, 11:43 PM #17
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

KGB_Productions - That video looks truly awesome! I can only imagine how amazing it must look actually being there. I'm assuming RGV is red, green, violet? Which

bluray diode is that and what power is it running at? I think you know what i'm getting at here. If i was to use this spare 405 diode and make an RGV scanner setup,

what power would i need to run it at, and what power would the red and green laser need to be to match up reasonably well in brightness? My bluray pointer has the G1

lens mod from Jayrob that i could use in a RGV due to it having good additional brightness over other lenses. I'd just replace the lens in my pointer with an acrylic

one to keep it alive as its a fun thing to play with.

I feel i'm getting close to actually ordering some components now

If the above mentioned TTL Green laser would work well with a 803T 405 diode what red TTL should i be looking at to complete?


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Thanks for the links, looking into them now



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Old 07-19-2009, 11:49 PM #18
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Originally Posted by XysteR View Post
KGB_Productions - That video looks truly awesome! I can only imagine how amazing it must look actually being there. I'm assuming RGV is red, green, violet? Which

bluray diode is that and what power is it running at? I think you know what i'm getting at here. If i was to use this spare 405 diode and make an RGV scanner setup,

what power would i need to run it at, and what power would the red and green laser need to be to match up reasonably well in brightness? My bluray pointer has the G1

lens mod from Jayrob that i could use in a RGV due to it having good additional brightness over other lenses. I'd just replace the lens in my pointer with an acrylic

one to keep it live as its a fun thing to play with.

I feel i'm getting close to actually ordering some components now




Thanks for the links, looking into them now
Not to discourage you, but I highly recommend completing a green scanner first if you've never built a scanner before. This will give you an idea of what you'll be dealing with when you build a multicolor system. Multi-color systems require many extra parts and optics that complicate things a bit, so it's easier to get good results from a green scanner on little experience.
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:42 AM #19
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

I'll continue to take your advice and do just that, i think i was running away with myself

I feel about ready to order some stuff now, i was having a bit of a battle over deciding which scanner kit to get: The DT25 or Scanpro20, the DT25 is more expensive but i think i'll go with that as it seems to be the better scanner.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:57 AM #20
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB_Productions View Post

I do have a spare 803T 405 bluray diode sitting doing nothing, after getting the green setup complete would it be possible to build this 405 diode with a higher powered analog driver and try to use it as a blue? Forget the analog driver and get yourself a FlexMod driver from Dr.Lava, It supports TTL which is WAYYY better
http://hacylon.case.edu/ebay/laser_diode/FlexMod01.php
New diode laser driver available: FlexMod 1! - Photonlexicon
Bit mixed up there mate, analog is the way to go, TTL sucks.

Analog = Adjustable output power
TTL = ON or Off

And yes, the DT25's are the best of the cheaper scanners. Scanpro 20's are great although perform poorer than the DT25's in the graphics department. Don't get me wrong, the Scanpro20's can be good, they are just harder to get right

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Old 07-20-2009, 12:54 PM #21
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Bit mixed up there mate, analog is the way to go, TTL sucks.

Analog = Adjustable output power
TTL = ON or Off

And yes, the DT25's are the best of the cheaper scanners. Scanpro 20's are great although perform poorer than the DT25's in the graphics department. Don't get me wrong, the Scanpro20's can be good, they are just harder to get right
I read that somewhere but thought i got them mixed up. Something about 7 colours with TTL and lots with analog, i recal reading its something to do with the blanking or something? Now i'm not sure about the green TTL laser ElektroFreak reccomended.

I'll go with the DT25 but everything seems to be thrown up in the air regarding the green laser?

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Old 07-20-2009, 01:37 PM #22
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Originally Posted by XysteR View Post
I read that somewhere but thought i got them mixed up. Something about 7 colours with TTL and lots with analog, i recal reading its something to do with the blanking or something? Now i'm not sure about the green TTL laser ElektroFreak reccomended.

I'll go with the DT25 but everything seems to be thrown up in the air regarding the green laser?
I believe you can switch the driver on the laser with an analog driver if you want to switch. At least I hope you can because I plan to. TTL can do on / off. Analog can do every value in between on and off, so you get intensity factored into your laser and can control that as well.

I'll be building my first scanner tomorrow, I have all the parts in finally ! FYI, the galvos & main scanner parts took about 1 month from China.

thanks,
Kendall
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:21 PM #23
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Smile Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Originally Posted by sk8er4514 View Post
I believe you can switch the driver on the laser with an analog driver if you want to switch. At least I hope you can because I plan to. TTL can do on / off. Analog can do every value in between on and off, so you get intensity factored into your laser and can control that as well.

I'll be building my first scanner tomorrow, I have all the parts in finally ! FYI, the galvos & main scanner parts took about 1 month form China.

thanks,
Kendall
Thanks for clearing that up. I can't wait until i'm clear on everything i need to buy. I'm itching to get started on my build but i know i need to clue myself up a little more to get all the right parts, i don't want to be upgrading anything, only adding colours later. You should document your build. I plan to make full a tutorial on how to build a scanner from scratch. I'm gathering and verifying the info at the moment. I like doing tutorials as they help me to clue myself up. Just a couple of days ago i knew nothing at all about laser scanners, i'm getting close to knowing enough to build my own. You should take some photos of the process of your build, be a great thing to help others and look back on yourself

For me the wiring things up scares me more than the optics, I know very little about electronics. I think if i had everything for and RGB scanner i'd actually enjoy lining the optics up. I've done a lot of collimating optics in the past and making cells for parabolic mirrors etc. Its actually easy, just time consuming.

One thing i've sussed out though is that if i was to build a true RGB scanner optically i'd have the blue closest to the galvos, it seems you can afford to lose a little bit of red or green brightness/power through optics but blue needs to have as little loss as possible, even if it is a small margin its something to help keep the power up on the blue, so i'll be doing just that, the brighter colours will be travelling through more optics, the lower powered ones like blue go straight to the galvos. So mine will go Green, Red, Blue, Galvo.

I'm still only gonna build a green to start with though, i'll just be sure to leave space for the other two colours in my build. By the way, What scanner brand/speed did you do for?

Keep us posted on your build, i hope all goes well

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Old 07-20-2009, 02:33 PM #24
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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You should document your build.
I have in the thread that I learned everything from. The new to scanners thread has loads of information that jamil has asked. He asked some great questions and pros such as Josh and EF and others respond.

Here's my documentation, new to scanners

read the entire new to scanners thread. it will take about 20 -30 minutes but will answer all the questions you have.

-Kendall
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:13 PM #25
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

About the Analog modulation: It is superior to TTL modulation when used in multi-color setups. I can't justify spending the extra $$ for an analog system if it's just going to be used in a monochrome scanner. TTL is more than sufficient for a single-color system, since there's no need to blend smoothly from one color to the next.

As you probably know, in an RGB system TTL modulation allows for 7 colors. Analog modulation ups this number to 16.7 million possible hues. In a single-color system, TTL provides for one color. Amazingly, in a single-color system analog also provides for one color. Where's the benefit? Unless you're planning on using the same laser in a single-color system and later in a multi-color, there is no real benefit. In my own experience I build single-color systems and leave them alone. If I want to build a multi-color system later, I build it with all new lasers. That way I'm expanding the number of scanners I have at the same time. Also, this keeps all the lasers in each scanner around the same age for convenience.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:21 PM #26
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Originally Posted by sk8er4514 View Post
I have in the thread that I learned everything from. The new to scanners thread has loads of information that jamil has asked. He asked some great questions and pros such as Josh and EF and others respond.

Here's my documentation, new to scanners

read the entire new to scanners thread. it will take about 20 -30 minutes but will answer all the questions you have.

-Kendall
Thanks for that! Reading it now, feet up with a cup of tea

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
About the Analog modulation: It is superior to TTL modulation when used in multi-color setups. I can't justify spending the extra $$ for an analog system if it's just going to be used in a monochrome scanner. TTL is more than sufficient for a single-color system, since there's no need to blend smoothly from one color to the next.

As you probably know, in an RGB system TTL modulation allows for 7 colors. Analog modulation ups this number to 16.7 million possible hues. In a single-color system, TTL provides for one color. Amazingly, in a single-color system analog also provides for one color. Where's the benefit? Unless you're planning on using the same laser in a single-color system and later in a multi-color, there is no real benefit. In my own experience I build single-color systems and leave them alone. If I want to build a multi-color system later, I build it with all new lasers. That way I'm expanding the number of scanners I have at the same time. Also, this keeps all the lasers in each scanner around the same age for convenience.
Yeah i see what you mean. But in a one colour green say you'd get variable brightness with analog and grading/variable brightness creates mood. It'd just be on (full bright) off with TTL, a kind of strobing effect i presume. My intention with my first build is to build without having to replace/upgrade anything in the future. I feel if i bought a TTL laser i'd ultimately have to convert it to analog by changing the driver. I've got my DT25 scanners lined up at a good price and i'll be looking to get an analong green for starters, i'll later include red and blue or bluray. Looking at the price of the blue lasers it'll definately end up being a high powered blueray. Ideally i want the biggest bang for buck. I'd love to have 1000's to spend on a setup but in general it seems you can get some pretty good results for not a stupid amount of outlay. i'm looking to keep my build at or under 400. I'll start with green, include red for RGY then later when i have this lot under my belt i'll be able to decide if i really want to spend bigger money on a blue laser or try with something with Bluray.

I'm really impressing myself now. After only a couple of days i feel i know enough to know what i'm after and what way to go about it lol

Again though, thanks to everyone for the help. I'd be sitting here baffled about scanners if it wasn't for you lot of great peeps!
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:39 PM #27
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Thanks for that! Reading it now, feet up with a cup of tea

Yeah i see what you mean. But in a one colour green say you'd get variable brightness with analog and grading create mood. It'd just be on (full bright) off with TTL, a kind of strobing effect i presume.

My intention with my first build is to build without having to replace/upgrade anything in the future. I feel if i bought a TTL laser i'd ultimately have to convert it to analog by changing the driver.
Yes, it will allow for variable brightness, but you're understating TTL. It's not "just a strobing effect". The images drawn with a TTL laser are just as vivid, beautiful and fluent as with analog. Also, DPSS lasers do not respond in a linear fashion to analog signals. What this means is as the analog signal ramps up the laser power does not follow in the same fashion. Instead what you get are flickering peaks and valleys that roughly correspond to the input signal. In a multi-colored system this is masked by the other lasers, but with a single-color system this will manifest itself as random areas of lighter and darker fill. The end result is a dirtier image. There's a lot of hype around about how analog is so much superior to TTL, and this is true but ONLY IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS. I stick by my original statement that it is not worth the extra money for analog in a single-color system. You can spend the money if you want, but due to the non-linearity issue you stand a very good chance of being disappointed by the entire system. You can get around this by treating the analog laser like it was TTL, but then really, what's the point of spending the money in the first place?

Any time I give advice I try to be as realistic and practical as possible. If you have never built a scanner before, you need to keep it as simple as possible at first. Jumping in with both feet might sound like fun, but I've heard all too often about folks spending a bunch of money and then selling it all at a loss because they ended up frustrated. Having built both single- and multi-color systems using both analog and TTL lasers I'm speaking from experience here. I recommend analog only for multi-color systems, and then only when you have software that takes advantage of the full 16.7 million color range. Otherwise, you have all this money invested and you still have to spend more to fully use it..

The bottom line is it's your money. You can do with it what you want. I'm only giving recommendations here that I feel would benefit you. You can take it or leave it. Given your budget of around 400 pounds, I'm thinking you'll end up taking it after you price what a decent analog modulated green laser will cost you along with the DT25s and the sound card DAC setup.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:32 PM #28
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Yes, it will allow for variable brightness, but you're understating TTL. It's not "just a strobing effect". The images drawn with a TTL laser are just as vivid, beautiful and fluent as with analog. Also, DPSS lasers do not respond in a linear fashion to analog signals. What this means is as the analog signal ramps up the laser power does not follow in the same fashion. Instead what you get are flickering peaks and valleys that roughly correspond to the input signal. In a multi-colored system this is masked by the other lasers, but with a single-color system this will manifest itself as random areas of lighter and darker fill. The end result is a dirtier image. There's a lot of hype around about how analog is so much superior to TTL, and this is true but ONLY IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS. I stick by my original statement that it is not worth the extra money for analog in a single-color system. You can spend the money if you want, but due to the non-linearity issue you stand a very good chance of being disappointed by the entire system. You can get around this by treating the analog laser like it was TTL, but then really, what's the point of spending the money in the first place?

Any time I give advice I try to be as realistic and practical as possible. If you have never built a scanner before, you need to keep it as simple as possible at first. Jumping in with both feet might sound like fun, but I've heard all too often about folks spending a bunch of money and then selling it all at a loss because they ended up frustrated. Having built both single- and multi-color systems using both analog and TTL lasers I'm speaking from experience here. I recommend analog only for multi-color systems, and then only when you have software that takes advantage of the full 16.7 million color range. Otherwise, you have all this money invested and you still have to spend more to fully use it..

The bottom line is it's your money. You can do with it what you want. I'm only giving recommendations here that I feel would benefit you. You can take it or leave it. Given your budget of around 400 pounds, I'm thinking you'll end up taking it after you price what a decent analog modulated green laser will cost you along with the DT25s and the sound card DAC setup.
I'll take your advice. I always try to run before i can walk, and i do admit i need reeling back in - Its all to common for me to think i have a full understanding of things, only to find someone with experience, who knows will point out that things aint always what i believed them to be. Your right, i'll fare better if i keep things simple to start with, then after this if i want to go colour then i suppose i can always mod the TTL laser to suit, i wouldn't have to replace it.
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Old 07-21-2009, 05:44 AM #29
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

Thats where cheap lab lasers and expensive ones meet. Cheap lasers have bad linearity, but once you start spending a bit more, it gets a whole lot better. My lasercentury module is rated at 150mW, but it does 240mW +/-10mW and the linearity is great!

Sure, go for TTL, I however feel that analog gives you more control. For example, I did a logo for "Veoh", if it wasn't for analog, I couldn't have done the shadow underneath without it looking like crap :P

Just my opinion, however, comes down to your budget. I am 15, I do not have a huge budget either, but I feel the jump from TTL-analog is quite a large one.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:09 PM #30
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Originally Posted by things View Post
Thats where cheap lab lasers and expensive ones meet. Cheap lasers have bad linearity, but once you start spending a bit more, it gets a whole lot better. My lasercentury module is rated at 150mW, but it does 240mW +/-10mW and the linearity is great!

Sure, go for TTL, I however feel that analog gives you more control. For example, I did a logo for "Veoh", if it wasn't for analog, I couldn't have done the shadow underneath without it looking like crap :P

Just my opinion, however, comes down to your budget. I am 15, I do not have a huge budget either, but I feel the jump from TTL-analog is quite a large one.
I love it when i feel like a tennis ball lol I'll take a look at the price difference and decide from there. Gonna phone to order scanners now. I'll see what they have
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Old 07-21-2009, 02:59 PM #31
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

Quote:
Originally Posted by things View Post
Thats where cheap lab lasers and expensive ones meet. Cheap lasers have bad linearity, but once you start spending a bit more, it gets a whole lot better. My lasercentury module is rated at 150mW, but it does 240mW +/-10mW and the linearity is great!

Sure, go for TTL, I however feel that analog gives you more control. For example, I did a logo for "Veoh", if it wasn't for analog, I couldn't have done the shadow underneath without it looking like crap :P

Just my opinion, however, comes down to your budget. I am 15, I do not have a huge budget either, but I feel the jump from TTL-analog is quite a large one.



'nuff said. I'm 30 and have been messing with lasers nearly since you were born..

I've seen professionally generated charts that show that CNI lasers (MUCH superior to laser-century) aren't even close to linear. About the most linear far-eastern brand is laser-wave, and they're still jittery as hell. I wouldn't put much stock in your feelings on this until you see it on paper.

Also, I tend not to use cheap lasers. Every one of my projectors are using CNI or laser-wave modules except one. I base my experience and advice on my use of the leading far-eastern brands.

The truth of the matter is that without a direct comparison in the form of video or photo, the OP won't have a good understanding unless they gain the experience themselves. All this being tugged back and forth isn't helping him in the least.

Things, most of your posts in this thread have only served to point out things that are flaws with these ideas in your opinion, which is fine but you haven't once posted a link to equipment that you feel might work for this guy or offered any insight into solving any problems or concerns. If we're going to go on and on about this, at least do something to point the guy in the right direction or help him out. I've already posted links to a great little starter laser, tutorials, threads.. everything necessary to begin planning a scanner. If you have a link to a resonably priced, high-quality analog module for XysteR then that would be helpful.. otherwise, let's leave him be so that he can begin planning his first scanner without having to change his mind 97 more times.
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Last edited by ElektroFreak; 07-21-2009 at 11:22 PM. Reason: accuracy
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:02 PM #32
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Default Re: First scanner advice needed, right step into scanners?

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Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
'nuff said. I'm 30 and have been messing with lasers nearly since you were born..

I've seen professionally generated charts that show that CNI lasers (MUCH superior to laser-century) aren't even close to linear. About the most linear far-eastern brand is laser-wave, and they're still jittery as hell. I wouldn't put much stock in your feelings on this until you see it on paper.

Also, I tend not to use cheap lasers. Every one of my projectors are using CNI or laser-wave modules. I base my experience and advice on my use of the leading far-eastern brands.

The truth of the matter is that without a direct comparison in the form of video or photo, the OP won't have a good understanding unless they gain the experience themselves. All this being tugged back and forth isn't helping him in the least.

Things, most of your posts in this thread have only served to point out things that are flaws with these ideas in your opinion, which is fine but you haven't once posted a link to equipment that you feel might work for this guy or offered any insight into solving any problems or concerns. If we're going to go on and on about this, at least do something to point the guy in the right direction or help him out. I've already posted links to a great little starter laser, tutorials, threads.. everything necessary to begin planning a scanner. If you have a link to a resonably priced, high-quality analog module for XysteR then that would be helpful.. otherwise, let's leave him be so that he can begin planning his first scanner without having to change his mind 97 more times.

Hehe thanks for the info. Its all helped me a hell of a lot. I had a good think about this TTL/analog decision and although i know they are generally more expensive i've decided to go for the analog as i know what i'm like, i'll be spending on Red then blue or Bluray in the not too distant future. I can justify the price difference, i work hard at my business, don't drink or smoke so i'm treating myself bigtime (as ususl) I've had a chat to Rob today at laser wave - he's been brilliant, spot on service! And i've bought the DT25 scanners and 150mW Green from him. He's tested it and its putting out about 200mW.

So i've taken the plunge, i'm planning my casing now making sure to leave room for optics and the other 2 lasers. If i catch some free time tomorrow i'm gonna look into some prices for Alu plate for the base. Such a lot to plan out, really looking forward to making this.
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