First Projector Advice

Meatball · Sep 7, 2010

I feel more comfortable posting this here rather than over at PL, cause I'm not such the noob over here!

I'm just working out some numbers and figures over what it may cost to put together a 1W projector.

I think a couple of beam corrected 445's, and this recently reviewed greenie

150MW Green Laser Diode DIY DPSS Module + Power Analog - eBay (item 230514268394 end time Sep-20-10 03:43:04 PDT)

will be a couple beams to start out with.

Now, about the red...

snoctony on ebay is a respected seller, and sells this 200mw 635 for $400.

200mw 635nm red laser +analog+TEC+Fan+Power supply - eBay (item 140447024691 end time Sep-29-10 08:27:47 PDT)

But for about half the money, I could come up with 500-550mw of 660 using one of Pat's PBS beam combiner kits with a couple LOCs thrown in.

So... I know that 635 would be much brighter than 200mw of 660, but is the extra cost worth it when I can get double the amount of 660 for half the price? Will the extra 300mw of 660 make up for the loss of appearance because of the extra long wavelength?

I have a tight budget in mind, so please mind my wallet. This projector may be only 1W so far, but I figure I can always upgrade beams over time, so for now I want to focus on a nice color balance that will give me some good practice with this stuff.

I'm also considering throwing in a 12X 405 diode... just for the heck of it. Is that worth it in anyone's opinion?

All of these beams would be analog modulated. Is that right?

Thanks for any help in getting me started. I need to set some goals before I just jump right in.

I'm all ears, so let me have it!

-Tyler

kiyoukan · Sep 7, 2010

Well to start out those lasers sound good though from what i remember it is hard to bring 405nm and 445nm together due to the less than 50nm difference and it might require you to use some different optics or have much higher loss.
Although now that i think about it you could combine them with some blu ray sled optics and then one of the dichros from a casio projector.
Also as for a projector what type of galvos you getting?

flecom · Sep 7, 2010

Meatball said:
I feel more comfortable posting this here rather than over at PL, cause I'm not such the noob over here!

we dont bite I promise

Meatball said:
I think a couple of beam corrected 445's,

a couple? I think one would be more than enough!

you'll actually want to run it at less than its rated output probably to make up for the lower green and especially red

Meatball said:
and this recently reviewed greenie

150MW Green Laser Diode DIY DPSS Module + Power Analog - eBay (item 230514268394 end time Sep-20-10 03:43:04 PDT)

I am also probably going to order some of those to play with... have not seen them used in show use yet so cant comment on how good they are, but the price is sure right!!!

Meatball said:
Now, about the red...

snoctony on ebay is a respected seller, and sells this 200mw 635 for $400.

200mw 635nm red laser +analog+TEC+Fan+Power supply - eBay (item 140447024691 end time Sep-29-10 08:27:47 PDT)

But for about half the money, I could come up with 500-550mw of 660 using one of Pat's PBS beam combiner kits with a couple LOCs thrown in.

So... I know that 635 would be much brighter than 200mw of 660, but is the extra cost worth it when I can get double the amount of 660 for half the price? Will the extra 300mw of 660 make up for the loss of appearance because of the extra long wavelength?

short answer:maybe

long answer: you also have to look at the beam size of the 635, generally they are gigantic... which means a lot of it is probably going to miss your scanners, so you could lose a huge amount there... (think 30~50% on a 5mm square beam)

the 660s are quite the opposite... sure they are less visible as far as beams, but they have really tight beams, which gives you less loss at the scanners... if your worried you could always do a 4 LOC combiner kit and get like a watt before losses

additionally...

Meatball said:
I have a tight budget in mind, so please mind my wallet. This projector may be only 1W so far, but I figure I can always upgrade beams over time, so for now I want to focus on a nice color balance that will give me some good practice with this stuff.

more reason to go with the 660... if you break it, its cheap to fix

Meatball said:
I'm also considering throwing in a 12X 405 diode... just for the heck of it. Is that worth it in anyone's opinion?

honestly, no, for beams its going to be barely visible, for graphics, it doesn't add much and is generally hard to see/annoying to most people (myself included, I am happy the 445's are making the 405's obsolete for projector use)

Meatball said:
All of these beams would be analog modulated. Is that right?

you really want everything to be analog... TTL is "OK" but if you want all the pretty colors you NEED analog... and if you have 445 (deep blue) and 660 (deep red) you have a pretty wide color gamut

Meatball said:
Thanks for any help in getting me started. I need to set some goals before I just jump right in.

I'm all ears, so let me have it!

-Tyler

welcome to the deep end of the addiction, say good bye to your wallet :na:

Meatball · Sep 7, 2010

Thanks K!

Hmm, good point. I thought that the more colors the merrier. I'd better look for a dichro that can deal!

Do you still have any a140s in stock?

I have no clue what type of galvos I'm looking at. Animation/graphics would be cool, but I love a good beam show!

I need to learn how to control galvos before I go shopping for them... I have no idea have they are ran or controlled. Something about a DMX? Whatever that is...

Perhaps some wide angle 30K? Or normal angle 40K? Not sure which are more beneficial..

flecom · Sep 7, 2010

Meatball said:
Thanks K!

Hmm, good point. I thought that the more colors the merrier. I'd better look for a dichro that can deal!

Do you still have any a140s in stock?

I have no clue what type of galvos I'm looking at. Animation/graphics would be cool, but I love a good beam show!

I need to learn how to control galvos before I go shopping for them... I have no idea have they are ran or controlled. Something about a DMX? Whatever that is...

Perhaps some wide angle 30K? Or normal angle 40K? Not sure which are more beneficial..

I dont sell 445 diodes, you might have me confused for someone else? :undecided:

I would get at least a decent set of 30kpps galvos if you want to do any kind of animation (all animations are pretty much going to be for 24/30k)

since you are on a pretty tight budget I am guessing, these would be my personal minimum...

Galvo(scanning) system ILDA30K Max50k for Laser systems - eBay (item 290464576019 end time Sep-15-10 05:47:46 PDT)

or spend a little more and get some ScanPro 30's from LSP

Lasershow Parts - SCANPRO Series 30Kpps Galvonometer System

ideally though I would recommend DT40's tuned to 30kpps like here:

https://www.ctlasers.com/purchases/dt40-scanner-system-p-129.html

or for a few bucks more the DT40 wides for some killer beam shows (crazy scan angles)

but you can always save those for the next projector

DMX is a lighting control protocol that you would use a DMX board to control... this does not let you "play" shows or make your own anything, just some preconfigured patterns and such...

you want some kind of computer based dac... I would recommend either a sound card based dac, or ideally, a pangolin FB3... the pangolin is a lot more expensive (about $600~) but its really powerful...

a sound card based dac can be had for about $100~$200 and can still do a lot of stuff too, so its definitely worth looking at if you dont plan on getting too serious or don't intend on doing "live" stuff...

avoid those "ISHOW" dacs all over ebay, they are complete garbage

kiyoukan · Sep 7, 2010

i think for the 445nm he was talking to me,
It depends i always keep a personal stock, but i am now running GB 24/7 and i am ordering to projectors now that i have more money before the orders are filled.
so if you want i can get you one at the best price but it depends on what you want and how fast you need it.

Grix · Sep 7, 2010

I reccommend a sound card dac for controlling your laser. They are really cheap and has very nice output compared to f.ex the iShow. Also look into the software spaghetti:

Spaghetti

Meatball · Sep 7, 2010

Sorry, I was asking Kikyokan about his GBs! You responded after I started replying to him..

flecom said:
we dont bite I promise

Ah, but you tend to speak with words I have yet to reference to see if they actually exist! (Poor poor excuse I know)

a couple? I think one would be more than enough!

you'll actually want to run it at less than its rated output probably to make up for the lower green and especially red

I was hoping to incorporate this nice knife edge kit that Pat made me, along with Dr. Lava's optics.. did you use beam correction with your 445s? I forgot. I go back to your thread and peak inside. :shhh:

I am also probably going to order some of those to play with... have not seen them used in show use yet so cant comment on how good they are, but the price is sure right!!!

EF got one with a 220mw peak! A fluke? Maybe...

short answer:maybe

long answer: you also have to look at the beam size of the 635, generally they are gigantic... which means a lot of it is probably going to miss your scanners, so you could lose a huge amount there... (think 30~50% on a 5mm square beam)

the 660s are quite the opposite... sure they are less visible as far as beams, but they have really tight beams, which gives you less loss at the scanners... if your worried you could always do a 4 LOC combiner kit and get like a watt before losses

additionally...

more reason to go with the 660... if you break it, its cheap to fix

Square beam? Eww.. gross. Hopefully, whatever greenie I get won't sit too tightly in the middle of the white beam for very long before it diverges to a matching size with the other beams?

honestly, no, for beams its going to be barely visible, for graphics, it doesn't add much and is generally hard to see/annoying to most people (myself included, I am happy the 445's are making the 405's obsolete for projector use)

Thanks for your input here. I haven't seen a white beam in person, and so I'm not familiar with color balancing at all.

you really want everything to be analog... TTL is "OK" but if you want all the pretty colors you NEED analog... and if you have 445 (deep blue) and 660 (deep red) you have a pretty wide color gamut

Right. Analog. I'll keep that in my brain for now. Even the violets are covered with this gamut? I'll take your word for it. I have no reason not to!

welcome to the deep end of the addiction, say good bye to your wallet :na:

Good thing I have a back-up!

flecom said:
I would get at least a decent set of 30kpps galvos if you want to do any kind of animation (all animations are pretty much going to be for 24/30k)

since you are on a pretty tight budget I am guessing, these would be my personal minimum...

Galvo(scanning) system ILDA30K Max50k for Laser systems - eBay (item 290464576019 end time Sep-15-10 05:47:46 PDT)

or spend a little more and get some ScanPro 30's from LSP

Lasershow Parts - SCANPRO Series 30Kpps Galvonometer System

ideally though I would recommend DT40's tuned to 30kpps like here:

https://www.ctlasers.com/purchases/dt40-scanner-system-p-129.html

or for a few bucks more the DT40 wides for some killer beam shows (crazy scan angles)

but you can always save those for the next projector

DMX is a lighting control protocol that you would use a DMX board to control... this does not let you "play" shows or make your own anything, just some preconfigured patterns and such...

you want some kind of computer based dac... I would recommend either a sound card based dac, or ideally, a pangolin FB3... the pangolin is a lot more expensive (about $600~) but its really powerful...

a sound card based dac can be had for about $100~$200 and can still do a lot of stuff too, so its definitely worth looking at if you dont plan on getting too serious or don't intend on doing "live" stuff...

avoid those "ISHOW" dacs all over ebay, they are complete garbage

Ok then... screw DMX. A computer interface is what I'll want. I can get software that still works with the sound card bit can't I? Is that the expensive stuff? (Crosses fingers)

And this software, talks to the DAC board which is connected to my PC via some interface? And this software tells the board how bright to modulate the beams, and it also tells the galvo amps where to go?

This is great help, I really appreciate it!

Meatball · Sep 7, 2010

kiyoukan said:
i think for the 445nm he was talking to me,
It depends i always keep a personal stock, but i am now running GB 24/7 and i am ordering to projectors now that i have more money before the orders are filled.
so if you want i can get you one at the best price but it depends on what you want and how fast you need it.

Alright guy, I'll let you know as soon as I know!

Grix said:
I reccommend a sound card dac for controlling your laser. They are really cheap and has very nice output compared to f.ex the iShow. Also look into the software spaghetti:

Spaghetti

Hmm, it says that the software can run TTL or DMX, where does it allow for analog modulation?

Looks like cool software though, I love the idea of a blind spot!

flecom · Sep 7, 2010

kiyoukan said:
i think for the 445nm he was talking to me,
It depends i always keep a personal stock, but i am now running GB 24/7 and i am ordering to projectors now that i have more money before the orders are filled.
so if you want i can get you one at the best price but it depends on what you want and how fast you need it.

ah ya :yabbem:

Meatball said:
Ok then... screw DMX. A computer interface is what I'll want. I can get software that still works with the sound card bit can't I? Is that the expensive stuff? (Crosses fingers)

there are plenty of sound-card based softwares

spaghetti, laser boy, etc

Meatball said:
And this software, talks to the DAC board which is connected to my PC via some interface? And this software tells the board how bright to modulate the beams, and it also tells the galvo amps where to go?

in the simplest terms yes... its a USB sound card modified for laser show use

Meatball said:
Hmm, it says that the software can run TTL or DMX, where does it allow for analog modulation?

Looks like cool software though, I love the idea of a blind spot!

I think your refering to "TTL Devices and DMX512 devices" in the list of supported stuff? that is not refering to TTL lasers in the projector... its refering to controlling other devices, intelligent lighting via DMX, other stuff via TTL like drop in effects, lighting stuff, shutters whatever

millirad · Sep 7, 2010

Interesting responses to your build! If you use higher powered lasers, I would think that fast scanners and wide angles provide the greatest safety margin. I like the brightness of the shorter wavelength red that you are considering too.

Grix · Sep 7, 2010

Meatball said:
Hmm, it says that the software can run TTL or DMX, where does it allow for analog modulation?

Looks like cool software though, I love the idea of a blind spot!

As flecom said, TTL in that way has nothing to do with modulating the lasers in the projector. Of course spaghetti allows analog modulating. And Gary (the guy who made it) is very easy to get ahold of and continuously updates the program with new features. I very much recommend it.

flecom · Sep 7, 2010

millirad said:
Interesting responses to your build! If you use higher powered lasers, I would think that fast scanners and wide angles provide the greatest safety margin. I like the brightness of the shorter wavelength red that you are considering too.

none of those things you mentioned really effect safety... just because you scan wider or faster does not lower the actual power of the scanned beams

MPE is about power density, so diverging or lowering output power is pretty much the only things that count as "safety"

also those 635nm diodes have huge 6x6mm square beams, so probably about 50% of the beam is going to get lost in your average set of scanner mirrors

you would be better off with 640nm lasers like this

https://www.ctlasers.com/purchases/300mw-640nm-p-71.html

much better beam specs 3mm vs 6mm for that 635 and 5mm for the average 650

millirad · Sep 8, 2010

^ I agree about the divergence and lower beam power, to increase safety. I guess as far as beam angles go, it comes down to what your software is doing to scan wide or point narrowly at the spectators, for the number of kpps hits they take. So the scan pattern is just as important. In other words, if it is doing a tunnel effect with a 2 degree arc or a 30 degree arc. Does the software do more blanking when the beam has a narrow angle?

Morgan · Sep 8, 2010

Anecdotally, I've read respected and knowledgeable scanner builders also say that the 660nm also gives much richer colours.

That is all I can add here but I learn as I read too!!!

M

flecom · Sep 8, 2010

millirad said:
^ I agree about the divergence and lower beam power, to increase safety. I guess as far as beam angles go, it comes down to what your software is doing to scan wide or point narrowly at the spectators, for the number of kpps hits they take. So the scan pattern is just as important. In other words, if it is doing a tunnel effect with a 2 degree arc or a 30 degree arc. Does the software do more blanking when the beam has a narrow angle?

I've heard similar arguments, and yes obviously the larger the scan angle the less time the beam will spend in any one spot... problem is no matter what that "spot" is going to contain the entire power of the beam for that duration of time... so its still dangerous no matter the scan angle/scan speed... and here in the US if its aimed @ people it cannot exceed Class I

Morgan said:
Anecdotally, I've read respected and knowledgeable scanner builders also say that the 660nm also gives much richer colours.

That is all I can add here but I learn as I read too!!!

M

this is true becuase the further out in either direction you go the more colors you can theoretically make... problem is when you go too far out your perceived brightness goes down pretty dramatically...

so like 405 and 671 theoretically would be awesome, problem is 405 has other side-effects due to near UV and like 671 is barely visible so you would need craptons of power of both...

so 445 and 660 I think are decent compromises.... plus they are cheap as a bonus

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