questions about the Hercules and the RPL

I am Nono Shen with Viasho Corporation. I think I should say something about
the laser diode used in our portable laser. I think honesty is the most
important principle in business cooperation.  So I want to say, we have two
kinds laser diodes. Normal products are made of 2W laser diode(just like
what Carter said), we also have some orders made with NLight  2.5W  laser
diode. This is our first direct business cooperation between Viasho and
Optotronics. Before this time our distributor ordered lasers from us to
supply Optotronics. We have different representatives to manage different
divisions. The distributor who previously supplied Optotronics is not in the
range of my management.  I want to say it is my carelessness about this
first direct order. I didn't know Optotronics normally uses N-Light 2.5W
laser diode to build laser. If there is not any specialty requirement on the
laser diode, we will use this 2W laser diode. They have same quality, no
matter on the output beam quality or on the output power range, they are
almost exactly the same. All the power output of the RPL will be higher than
requested.

So please don't worry about the quality. Everyone will know Optotronics
supply warranty time is 1Year. And normal products of ours is 3 months. So
everyone easily knows how much extra energy and money did Optotronics pay in
rest more than 9 or 10 months( including shipping and stock them for sell)
in the past year. Please don't worry about the repair process. If a laser
ever fails, Optotronics will send them back to Viasho for repair ASAP. That
is why both sellers and buyers need distributor, they truly help us save
much more time and energy.  

After this matter, we need remove all the mistakes between Carter and
Optotronics. The wonderful Forum is a good place to post own opinion and
wondering, will lead more experience and questions, but early or late will
get an answer.

After consulting with Optotronics, Viasho laser will supply Optotronics 2.5W
Nlight laser diode to build RPL for future orders. " I must appologize to
Optotronics about this accident. I want to say  Under the protection of
considerate Warranty Service( 1 Year), do you still think purchasing an RPL
from Optotronics is full of worries?

Well i'm glad this issue has now been set straight. Thank you for your input Nono_Shen and owning up to the mistake, it takes guts to do that.

pseudonomen137 said:

I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused. If Lambda deceived you, I'm sorry and that obviously isn't your fault. However, the rest of your message reads as if you only just started getting RPL Blue units that actually match the 2.5W spec your website has been saying for a good year now.

I also am a bit bothered by your comment about duty cycle. You state 5 minutes on, 2 off on full power. As you know, I placed an order a few weeks back and sold a few of these units at discount. During the process, I had to explain to many disappointed customers that the 5 min on/2min off duty cycle claim was simply wrong. I like having to call BS on optotronics like that, but I really didn't have any option. That's the same problem I have with the diode problem. 2W or 2.5, as long as it meets output I could care less. Having to explain to potential clients that optotronics is wrong though. That disappoints me and it disappoints the customer.

Back to duty cycle though. Neither Viasho nor Lambda, both of whom I've asked, have quoted duty cycle figures even remotely near that appealing. I've seen units that would meet a 5 min on 2 min off spec, but also plenty that wouldn't - especially if you're now getting these higher power green and blue units, both of which we know still have the inadequate heatsinking problem. Its just.... troubling to me as someone who once put great trust in your company. On the whole, optotronics is still much better than places like WL, and the RPLs are a great buy - especially at these reduced prices. However, it sure would be nice to see your products advertised more accurately, and perhaps a little less stifling of fair competition with the counterfeit RPL/WL is buying all my lasers paranoia.

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Hi Carter,
Thank you for this apology,
It was just a lack of open communication between us, I didn't know you had any issues or concerns, if you had just contacted me and asked, I would have given you honest answers to your questions. I'm not placing blame on you by saying this, It is also partially my fault as many times we have tried to contact each other it just didn't happen due to both of us having busy schedules.

Here is some detail on the questions above.
It was mentioned that the 2.5W in our spec for the RPL-blue when I just got these new diodesin in my last order. You're right, I don't know for sure about what diode was used previously in the blue RPL. It was an oversight on my part when I copied the RPL green webpage to make the RPL blue webpage. I don't even know for sure if the new/better diode I'm getting in them now is even 2.5W, but I do know they are now more powerful and this is due to the new diode that was recently offered to me for the RPL at a more expensive cost. Like you, I'm sure, we both want the best quality we can get and I figured if I were the customer and spending a large amount of money on a portable, I would be willing to pay more for this. This was the case with the PPL 2 years ago and what I asked for for the RPLs being made for me when they became available.

As for duty cycle, I was told by Lambda in the beginning that the recommended run time of the RPL was "several minutes". I never even listed a duty cycle spec until just a couple months ago. I did this because many customers were telling they were getting 100% duty cycle just fine if they tuned the diode current and commented that I should put on the website that they do 100% duty cycle. I thought that 100% was pushing it, so I picked a spec I could support. I picked what I speced and stand behind it. Being the seller/distributor I can change some performance specs based on what I test them to and am will to stand behind, warranty and promise to the customer. Just like Intel, they make CPUs all with the same wafer and test them, sort them and give each max frequency specs based on their performance.

Some specs cannot or should not be changed, such as those that specify particular components as that is not something that can be tested and screened for; either it has a particular component or doesn't. With other specs such as duty cycle, beam diameter, output power rating and divergence; we can spec as we like as long as they are tested for and verified. Of course doing so will result in yield fallout. Some units will not meet all the specs and as such we either have to pay to have them reworked, use them for own uses such as spare parts, sell them at a discount for not meeting a certain spec (customer would know this in advance) or write them off at the end of the year as losses.

I hope this answer most of the issues here, feel free to email me if there are other things to talk about.

Thanks
Jack

Thanks everyone for stepping up and clearing the confusion that has been going on for a while now.
It makes me really happy we have forum here where discussion can reach this level.

Pseudo:

It seems to me that battery freshens is more important for higher powered RPLs (300+) than heat, as you say limits duty cycle. I say this because my tests always end with battery protection circuit turning the laser off after number of minutes. To support my theory, I would turn laser back ON quickly (in 10-30seconds, even quicker), and power would jump back up a lot while very little or no heat is noticeable on the handle.

What I'm trying to say is that battery "tiredness" seems quite obvious.

The 2 RPLs I had were easily in 300-500mWmW range, and would only get warm after two or more tests back to back. Main issue is keeping battery fresh. These tests easily fall into 5min ON, 2min OFF suggested cycle.
Yesterday I had my RPL375 ON for 20min on level 5 with fresh battery. First 4-5 min were well within 300-500mW

I do agree that heat sink up front serves little purpose. But then again, despite that RPLs have great performance.

I appreciate any comments.

p.s.
www.viasho.com link doesnt work.
My mistake. It works from other computer using ie.

I notice you've updated optotronics now. What I was complaining about is how your site used to say 5 minutes on 2 minutes off at full power, especially when Viasho quotes 50 seconds and Lambda told me 30-120 seconds. I know at lower power setting runtimes are a whole different story, but at full power I used to have to explain to people that your site was, simply put, wrong.

At this point I don't really have any complaints about the RPL product line as advertised on your site, and I'm glad to again have a site to defer people looking for high power greenies to when I don't have something to offer myself.

Anyone who's read my posts over the last few months knows I'm intensely critical of any company out there and I'm willing to nitpick about even the most minute details. I'd like to try to explain how this all happened with optotronics though. I remember a long time back, nexus/Steve of WL was attack bootleg2go/Jack of optotronics on the LC forums - insisting that RPLs were CNI units and the like. At which point Jack defended himself and back himself up with a few remarks about the supposed trip he took to visit the RPL manufacturer. Now, since Jack didn't even work with the manufacturer at that time, we know that story was complete BS. In Jack's defense, he was only defending himself against WLs lies anyway, but I didn't feel too comfortable with this instance of fighting fire with fire. This and a few other inconsistencies left me wondering how much I really could trust optotronics (a company I had made a very positive review and video for and spent much time promoting on the LC). The more I learned about these units, the less accurate Jack's advertising seemed to get.

I now see that I was completely mistaken about some points like the diode issue, and I apologize to Jack/optotronics for any trouble I may have caused through this. I still feel I had some justification though, and, in my mind, there is still room for improvements for opto. For instance, the videos on the website here: http://www.optotronics.com/gallery.php claiming to be RPL 325 and RPL 30 units are a bit misleading in my opinion. They were some of Jack's top units, and these freak units are sold privately in sales like the RPL 375 Milos has. I find it highly unlikely such a unit would be sent out as an RPL 325 unless in a dire inventory calamity - which (again just in my opinion) doesn't seem entirely fair to the customer. Then again, I've been wrong before and I see no reason I can't be wrong again. What do you all think?

Hi Carter, Thanks for your comments, I think we are on the right to track to improving everything and correcting any misunderstandings. This really makes my day that these things are getting worked out as of all the forum members, I always had the greatest amount of respect for you and your opinion.

About our website, the only thing that has changed recently was the lowering of prices and addition of the RPL-375. No spec changes have been made in some time. It might have been just interpreted that way, (doesn't really matter, I just wanted you know this hasn't changed in some time.)

Thsi morning I did examine the RPL-Blue spec and remove any reference to a 2.5W diode being in them previously as I figured I had just copied it from the RPL-green page without thinking about it; however when I looked it the blue spec, it didn't mention the 2.5W diode or power rating of the diode at all, just that it was an Nlight diode. I'll keep the Nlight diode in the spec as they are being built that way now for sure.

One the RPL video of our website I will either make a cooment that it is not a typical RPL-325 or I may record another video of what is really a typical RPL-350 or 375, not the best one in stock. If I do use the best one in stock I will note that.

I did in the multimedia section of LFP forum mention in the post that I put up right after the video that the laser was not typical by any means. I ill update these as well to reiterate it.

But to let everyone know, the 375's are not "freak units" and was not sent out until I had many of them in stock and had lots of test time on them. The RPL that I just got in that averages 550mW I would call a freak unit and that is not for sale...At least until I have 6-8 lasers of this approximate power level and they have all gone through the burn-in and test process many times. The RPL sent to Milos was not sold to him outright in a private sale. What happened was that he had bought an RPL-325 many months ago and it began to have a stability problem. I worked with him to try and troubleshoot the problem by email, when that didn't solve it I had him send it back for me to examine. I told him I would just replace it for him. At the time I didn't have another RPL-325 in stock with as low a divergence has his 1st RPL and he said he would be willing to upgrade to a higher power level if any in a higher range had better divergence, so that is what we did. I try to do all I can to make sure the customers are and remain happy (I can't always, but try to within reason and put myself in their place and do the right thing).

So much for the past.
I'm really happy that things are improving.
I also am willing to listen to your ideas and suggestions for improvement, there's always room for improvement and I would really like to talk with you on the phone soon and make a freah start.

For that matter, if anyone else has ideas or comments, send them to me and I'll listen.

Jack

I just noticed this lengthy thread, but I want to comment on something in the original post:

The Hercules uses a looped wire for the interlock because it is designed so that you can easily incorporate it into a door-triggered interlock system (as found in many optics labs) or something similar. Many labs have stipulations that lasers must be hardwired into the door so that anytime somebody walks in unexpectedly, the laser stops operating immediately. Rather than being "not professional" this is actually designed specifically for professional use.

Also, the Hercules now features dual cooling using a small (and quiet) cooling fan coupled with TE cooling for amazing stability and long-term performance.

Sorry to digress this late in the thread, I've been off sick for a few days.

Ah, I see.

It just looked like that the wire was chewed by something. ;D

pseudonomen137 said:

I now see that I was completely mistaken about some points like the diode issue, and I apologize to Jack/optotronics for any trouble I may have caused through this. I still feel I had some justification though, and, in my mind, there is still room for improvements for opto. For instance, the videos on the website here: http://www.optotronics.com/gallery.php claiming to be RPL 325 and RPL 30 units are a bit misleading in my opinion. They were some of Jack's top units, and these freak units are sold privately in sales like the RPL 375 Milos has. I find it highly unlikely such a unit would be sent out as an RPL 325 unless in a dire inventory calamity - which (again just in my opinion) doesn't seem entirely fair to the customer. Then again, I've been wrong before and I see no reason I can't be wrong again. What do you all think?

Click to expand...

Carter...I think You would be able to find many faults in quality & design of Hasselblad Cameras Now this might be either good or bad depending on how one looks at it. I personaly think that the videos on Jacks website are perfectly ok even if they show "freak" units, they show RPL's not some other product and that seems ok. The same for me if Intel shows benchmarks of their new "freak" cpu's, Id have nothing against it. One other thing...Im surprised cause theres actualy a poping ballon video done by You on Jacks website and You dont seem to complain on that video.

koti said:

Carter...I think You would be able to find many faults in quality & design of Hasselblad Cameras Now this might be either good or bad depending on how one looks at it. I personaly think that the videos on Jacks website are perfectly ok even if they show "freak" units, they show RPL's not some other product and that seems ok. The same for me if Intel shows benchmarks of their new "freak" cpu's, Id have nothing against it. One other thing...Im surprised cause theres actualy a poping ballon video done by You on Jacks website and You dont seem to complain on that video.

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Yeah, I guess it all comes down to opinion. Its not completely dishonest and I can understand a company doing, but it is bad business ethics IMO and I'm not sure how much trust to put into a company who does that.

The balloon popping video was just something I did for fun when we were having a little one-upmanship balloon pop war on the LC a while back. I have no problem with optotronics using that video for their marketing, and I don't think its in any way unrepresentative of an RPL-300. That was a pretty typical RPL 300 I think, not a freak unit. Unfortunately the MCA got lose in it a little while ago and has since become a relic to dismantle and experiment with here and there, but that's about it (its not really beyond disrepair, but I haven't had the need to invest the time it'd take to bring it back from teh graveyard).

Oh dear. I hope that the newer RPL units will not have that problem. :\

ixfd64 said:

Oh dear. I hope that the newer RPL units will not have that problem. :\

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Eh, I dont think its anything inherent to the design. The pieces inside are held together with some type of glue and I was probably too rough with my RPL ans dislodged it.

pseudonomen137 said:

[quote author=koti link=1194907820/15#24 date=1195278335]
Carter...I think You would be able to find many faults in quality & design of Hasselblad Cameras Now this might be either good or bad depending on how one looks at it. I personaly think that the videos on Jacks website are perfectly ok even if they show "freak" units, they show RPL's not some other product and that seems ok. The same for me if Intel shows benchmarks of their new "freak" cpu's, Id have nothing against it. One other thing...Im surprised cause theres actualy a poping ballon video done by You on Jacks website and You dont seem to complain on that video.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess it all comes down to opinion. Its not completely dishonest and I can understand a company doing, but it is bad business ethics IMO and I'm not sure how much trust to put into a company who does that.

The balloon popping video was just something I did for fun when we were having a little one-upmanship balloon pop war on the LC a while back. I have no problem with optotronics using that video for their marketing, and I don't think its in any way unrepresentative of an RPL-300. That was a pretty typical RPL 300 I think, not a freak unit. Unfortunately the MCA got lose in it a little while ago and has since become a relic to dismantle and experiment with here and there, but that's about it (its not really beyond disrepair, but I haven't had the need to invest the time it'd take to bring it back from teh graveyard). [/quote]

Hi Carter,
When I made that video, the intention was to show everyone what the RPL design was capable of, not to promote that the average RPL-325 would output that kind of power. I, like you I'm sure, was getting tired of all these ebay and other websites popping up claiming 200 or 250mW of output from a tiny pointer and I want ed to show that this design was in a completely different class.

Last night I added a message below each of the videos on my website explaining that the videos are not typical of the average RPL-325 or RPL-Blue-30 and that they were listed as such only because at the time these videos were made, these were the highest output model we were offering.

I had originally planned to have it posted as an RPL-400, I might have even made a video of it with RPL-400 labeling, but I decided if I did that then I might be deceiving people by putting up a video promoting a product that didn't yet exist (except in a couple "freak" lasers as they are called around here) and I didn't or couldn't offer at that time.

I'm sorry to here about your RPL.
If you want to send it and all the pieces to me, I'll get it fixed for you at very low cost. If you can get it to me by Tuesday, I could send it back with a couple of lasers I got in that are not up to par, and it would be sent bak with my next order that is due to come in a few weeks. Your only cost is the shipping to and from me along with the low cost that I'm charged for the repair.

Take care and have a good weekend.

Jack

Jack, I've got another suggestion for your lasers. It seems that the warning labels on Optotronics' lasers do not list the output and wavelength. Personally, I think that the labels should show this information.

This is more of a convenience issue than a safety one. It seems that many users like to remove the "RPL-xxx" sticker from their lasers, probably because they don't like having too many labels. However, if such users have multiple lasers, they might become confused as to which is which. For example, the blue RPL-30 should have the line ">30 mW minimum output at 473 nm" (or "80 mW maximum output at 473 nm") somewhere on the safety warning label. Similarly, an RPL-375 should have something like ">375 mW minimum output at 532 nm"  (or "550 mW maximum output at 532 nm") on the label.

Just to add my 2 cents worth...I had at first ordered my RPL with a non-adjustable cap but upgraded to a more powerful RPL and changed to an adjustable cap on the exchange. I find that I like the adjustable cap much better! No need to turn it above level 4 unless the battery is weak. From what I understand, the full powered non-adj. cap is giving too much current and over saturates the crystal. If I am not properly informed about this, please let me know more...But after trying both caps, I am convinced that the adjustable is the one to have. I like using it on level 2 most of the time...Don't even need full power!
Jay

jayrob said:

Just to add my 2 cents worth...I had at first ordered my RPL with a non-adjustable cap but upgraded to a more powerful RPL and changed to an adjustable cap on the exchange. I find that I like the adjustable cap much better! No need to turn it above level 4 unless the battery is weak. From what I understand, the full powered non-adj. cap is giving too much current and over saturates the crystal. If I am not properly informed about this, please let me know more...But after trying both caps, I am convinced that the adjustable is the one to have. I like using it on level 2 most of the time...Don't even need full power!
Jay

Click to expand...

I've been saying this all along.

The only way these lasers should come in non adjustable form is with APC to maintain maximum output with TEMoo mode. To be effective TE cooling would be required (including TE heating on KTP) for best results from cold start ups to hot shutdowns. Of course if you really need this stability you're looking at a true lab laser (MG/Coherent). But for a portable being able to dial in current with repeatability over the charge of the cell is rather kick ass. Now when are those RPL 500's going up for sale?