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Old 06-01-2017, 11:17 PM #129
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

AFAIK-- Each 'part'-- itself is not illegal (inUSA) except maybe the green deazzler.. IF I were to sell these I personally would be very careful who each buyer was and some kind of training would be required--in the excitement of the moment I can see some who would not be able to use this device 100% properly.. ders a lotta buttons & knobages on it.. --IIRC there is a YTube vid as well.

the price alone may deter some with bad intentions..
~1$ per green mW..


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Old 06-01-2017, 11:25 PM #130
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

You can still get sued, even if the daz buyer signs a contract stating they are liable and accept all responsibility bla bla bla, you can still get sued.
People need to get this very bad idea out of their heads, unless it's a matter of life and death and by God it had better be then just get it out of your heads.
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Old 06-01-2017, 11:35 PM #131
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

yeah even if ONLY the seller--and not the person using it-- selling to a minor could be VERY bad.
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Old 06-01-2017, 11:58 PM #132
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Yep, your right Len, you can't stress safety enough with something like this, you'd almost want to know the buyer of any of these just to reduce possibility of a lawsuit.
You never know which one of "dem buttons or knobages" someone might push when they feel endangered.
Glad to see the safety aspect is priority with these.

That being said, how many can I get?
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:02 AM #133
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post

AFAIK-- Each 'part'-- itself is not illegal (inUSA) except maybe the green deazzler.. ~~~~~

.
Just curious; where did you get your information that the green dazzler might be illegal in the USA ? Thanks.
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:02 AM #134
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

I suppose it would not be illegal to own one, but the question is what happens when you actually use one.

You could possibly blind someone, or cause even greater harm than that if you flashblind them causing them to trip, hit their head on a rock and split their skull. A similar thing applies to tazers and such - they may be mostly non-lethal initally, but can still kill someone if they fall badly, have some medical condition or such. And for dazzlers and such there are medical conditions like epilepsy that could result in turning them deadly to at least some targets.

If you sell these things liability could be huge: If you label them as non-lethal but a client uses them on someone, causing an epileptic attack or fall resulting in death, that proves your product is, in fact, lethal after all.
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Old 06-02-2017, 02:00 AM #135
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I suppose it would not be illegal to own one, but the question is what happens when you actually use one.

You could possibly blind someone, or cause even greater harm than that if you flashblind them causing them to trip, hit their head on a rock and split their skull. A similar thing applies to tazers and such - they may be mostly non-lethal initally, but can still kill someone if they fall badly, have some medical condition or such. And for dazzlers and such there are medical conditions like epilepsy that could result in turning them deadly to at least some targets.

If you sell these things liability could be huge: If you label them as non-lethal but a client uses them on someone, causing an epileptic attack or fall resulting in death, that proves your product is, in fact, lethal after all.
Hypotheticals are not a good argument. With that type of logic ice skates could be illegal do to their potential use as self defense items because of there blades. The analogy is absurd I know, but you see the point. State and or local jurisdictions decide what is not legal. In my county stun guns are now or will be legal to use in short order. I know of no law prohibiting the use of photonic devices. Do you?

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Old 06-02-2017, 02:24 AM #136
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

all valid points.. and btw JL has not sold any so far to USA -- I 'think' any that were ordered/wanted for USA buyers got refunded--I will find out but either way none sold here by JL at least..

if public display of any laser over 5 mWs is not legal/legit/ up to code etc etc.
(self defense not withstanding)

I was not able to find another maker with all 3 modes..
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Old 06-02-2017, 06:31 AM #137
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I suppose it would not be illegal to own one, but the question is what happens when you actually use one.

You could possibly blind someone, or cause even greater harm than that if you flashblind them causing them to trip, hit their head on a rock and split their skull. A similar thing applies to tazers and such - they may be mostly non-lethal initally, but can still kill someone if they fall badly, have some medical condition or such. And for dazzlers and such there are medical conditions like epilepsy that could result in turning them deadly to at least some targets.

If you sell these things liability could be huge: If you label them as non-lethal but a client uses them on someone, causing an epileptic attack or fall resulting in death, that proves your product is, in fact, lethal after all.
Was interested whether they were illegal to own in the States?
Thanks for your thoughts, well reasoned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
all valid points.. and btw JL has not sold any so far to USA -- I 'think' any that were ordered/wanted for USA buyers got refunded--I will find out but either way none sold here by JL at least..

if public display of any laser over 5 mWs is not legal/legit/ up to code etc etc.
(self defense not withstanding)

I was not able to find another maker with all 3 modes..
Let me know if you find where you found that they were illegal in the States. I own one.;

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Old 06-03-2017, 01:24 AM #138
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by steve001 View Post
Hypotheticals are not a good argument. With that type of logic ice skates could be illegal do to their potential use as self defense items because of there blades. The analogy is absurd I know, but you see the point. State and or local jurisdictions decide what is not legal. In my county stun guns are now or will be legal to use in short order. I know of no law prohibiting the use of photonic devices. Do you?
Well, that's the the problem really. Many fairly common items make pretty deadly weapons if used as such. Things like skillets, hammers, chainsaws, cars, or even bricks or icepicks can be used as lethal weapons if you choose to do so.

Something like a dazzler has no other realsitic purpose than to flashblind someone.

This can make a significant difference in some jurisdictions: using weapon of oppurtunity often is less of a problem than using a weapon that was kept for that purpose.

Sometimes it does not really matter what the actual weapon is, a weapon of oppurtiny can be anything you have laying around to be used for some other realistic purpose. Perhaps a big maglite, or a meat cleaver knive, or a hammer, or even a chainsaw if someone invades your property after you've been cutting hedges.

I think lasers should be considered weapons of opportunity in most cases, unless specifically built to assault like dazzlers. Also they are not really that effective since you have to blind both eyes in an attacker, which is pretty hard to do quickly with something that outputs a beam about a centimetre wide at engagement distance.

One thing you could do is put a 'class IV laser in operation' warning sticker on your front door or property gate, ensuring that anyone breaking in or invading actually should have known doing so posed a severe health risk.

Last edited by Benm; 06-03-2017 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 06-03-2017, 03:16 AM #139
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
Well, that's the the problem really. Many fairly common items make pretty deadly weapons if used as such. Things like skillets, hammers, chainsaws, cars, or even bricks or icepicks can be used as lethal weapons if you choose to do so.

Something like a dazzler has no other realsitic purpose than to flashblind someone.

This can make a significant difference in some jurisdictions: using weapon of oppurtunity often is less of a problem than using a weapon that was kept for that purpose.

Sometimes it does not really matter what the actual weapon is, a weapon of oppurtiny can be anything you have laying around to be used for some other realistic purpose. Perhaps a big maglite, or a meat cleaver knive, or a hammer, or even a chainsaw if someone invades your property after you've been cutting hedges.

I think lasers should be considered weapons of opportunity in most cases, unless specifically built to assault like dazzlers. Also they are not really that effective since you have to blind both eyes in an attacker, which is pretty hard to do quickly with something that outputs a beam about a centimetre wide at engagement distance.

One thing you could do is put a 'class IV laser in operation' warning sticker on your front door or property gate, ensuring that anyone breaking in or invading actually should have known doing so posed a severe health risk.
"Dazzlers" were designed to be anti-personel devices.

Who's talking about lasers as purpose built self defense devices, no one. It's photonic devices that concern me (us). Photonic defense devices if the strobe rate it rapid enough appear to be effective at causing temporary disorienting flash blindness. From experience a plain old strobe lights can be annoying as well as the flash from a camera strobe light. So I think from what I've seen a green 532nm photonic device strobing at say 20 cycles per seconds would be affective as a self defense device. I'm sure the are videos out there on the interwebs to watch.
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:23 AM #140
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

I'm not sure how effective something that keeps within MPE could be, regardless of how it flashes. It could be effective against a percentage of population whereas the rest just are annoyed by the bright light but my no means incapacitated. That would be a big gamble to rely on for your personal safety.

I'm also curious how much better or worse it would perform to, say, a xenon photo flash unit with a test button on it. Those certainly cause flash blindness in a dark environment, and if you are the one pushing the button you can close your eyelids when firing the flash.

With dazzlers i have my doubt about how effective they are in real life situations: the person you trying to dazzle does have the option not not look into the light, probably rendering him immune to the effect.
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:25 PM #141
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I'm not sure how effective something that keeps within MPE could be, regardless of how it flashes. It could be effective against a percentage of population whereas the rest just are annoyed by the bright light but my no means incapacitated. That would be a big gamble to rely on for your personal safety.

I'm also curious how much better or worse it would perform to, say, a xenon photo flash unit with a test button on it. Those certainly cause flash blindness in a dark environment, and if you are the one pushing the button you can close your eyelids when firing the flash.

With dazzlers i have my doubt about how effective they are in real life situations: the person you trying to dazzle does have the option not not look into the light, probably rendering him immune to the effect.
Here's a video of a dazzler in action. See how bright that spot is? Don't you think you'd look away?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcsdtyVra1w

Here's a B.E. Meyers video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_6lfveLAjE

A British made dazzler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcOZvKRpy4Y

If the person has to avert their eyes then how would they get close enough do harm to you. You see the point is to not let them get close enough to do harm.

You could do a test on yourself or a friend. It you have a green laser and either a negative or positive lens affix it to the front of the laser to expand the beam and point it at your friends eyes who's standing some distance away.

Last edited by steve001; 06-04-2017 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 06-05-2017, 12:50 AM #142
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

In all honesty the first thing i think when looking at those videos is 'lets put on my goggles and just walk on'. You probably don't even need safety rated ones to shield you from the effect, and something available for a few bucks of ebay would render you fully immune to the dazzler.

If they become commonly used weapons so will the countermeasures, and considering how cheap those are, it's more or less like a full-body bullet proof suit vs a gun, but for $5 and about an ounce in weight.

When people realize what measure would be used against them they will use protection against that if available. It's like protestors wearing gas masks when they expect riot police to use teargas on them, but protective goggles are far cheaper than effective gas masks, and are not hindering you very much if you wear them as a precaution.

Afaik it's not illegal to wear protection equipment in public, regardless if it is anti-bullet, anti-gas, or anti-laser. A gas mask could be somewhat probematic in some european countries that ban wearing complete face masking attire (like skimasks, niqabs, and such) in public places.

The laser goggles would not be a problem though, those are just cool orange sunglasses like any other to the law, and can be worn publicly at any time.
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