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Old 05-05-2017, 06:47 PM #1
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Thumbs up Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Hello,

I'm a complete beginner with this. I've spent quite a bit of time researching things but always find it better to ask the pros, so I hope you can help me out. I live in the mountains, and i would like to be able to project my brands logo up onto the face of one of the nearby mountains. I have seen this done before with green laser, so I know I'm not delusional! The longer the distance the better, but I suppose it would be 1km minimum. I was wondering where I start, the rough costs involved, can i diy it and is blue a possible colour?

Thanks in advance.


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Old 05-05-2017, 07:04 PM #2
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Easiest is RGB projector set to very narrow angle (but for 1 km it will be expensive), but you can do it yourself for that purpose. You need galvo scanner some green module with great divergence (532 nm green for example) and high power. If you use some electronics supporting ILDA, you just might get some software to do it easily.

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Old 05-05-2017, 07:25 PM #3
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radim View Post
Easiest is RGB projector set to very narrow angle (but for 1 km it will be expensive), but you can do it yourself for that purpose. You need galvo scanner some green module with great divergence (532 nm green for example) and high power. If you use some electronics supporting ILDA, you just might get some software to do it easily.

Welcome to the forum and stay safe.
Agreed on that.

Nice thing about the "screen" being so far away is that you may be able to turn down the scan angle some for a faster scan/cheaper scanners and still have a decently sized logo.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:06 PM #4
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Thanks for the replies - I'm glad to hear it is possible. I am trying to do things as cheaply as possible, so the image projector is probably a no-go. With regards to the rest of the advice, I was lost at the word go! Would you mind breaking it down into layman terms? Or giving me a few pointers of how to get started?
Cheers.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:11 PM #5
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt90 View Post
Thanks for the replies - I'm glad to hear it is possible. I am trying to do things as cheaply as possible, so the image projector is probably a no-go. With regards to the rest of the advice, I was lost at the word go! Would you mind breaking it down into layman terms? Or giving me a few pointers of how to get started?
Cheers.

What's your budget?

RGB Projector - Red Green Blue laser projector, has three colours that are mixed and can produce, in theory, any colour. Much like a TV or conventional projector works. See below image, Green, Blue and Red combined to make white.



Projection/scan angle - angle between edges of the projection, large angle gives a larger image at a given distance than a smaller angle at said distance.



Galvo scanner - the device used to project the image. Basically two mirrors attached to two galvonometers (specialized ones). One mirror moves the beam in the X axis, the other in the Y, creating a vector image.



532nm - wavelength of a typical green laser.

ILDA - International Laser Display Association - Standard for controlling laser projectors.

Think that covers much of Radim's post... Anything I missed?
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Last edited by diachi; 05-05-2017 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:14 PM #6
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

That is a lot clearer - thanks! My budget could stretch to about $350. How far would that get me?

Cheers
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:53 PM #7
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Thanks, diachi. You were faster.

To add in RGB there are also dichroic mirrors for combining the colors into one beam. You do not need them for single color like green only. On scheme diachi posted there seem to be also two normal, but front surface (important is to have the reflective layer - silver - on front, not on back side as usuall mirrors like in bathroom), it is there just to fit separate modules in the case, some projectors do not have it and beam goes into scanner only through dichros. So the setup might be even less complicated.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:07 PM #8
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radim View Post
Thanks, diachi. You were faster.

To add in RGB there are also dichroic mirrors for combining the colors into one beam. You do not need them for single color like green only. On scheme diachi posted there seem to be also two normal, but front surface (important is to have the reflective layer - silver - on front, not on back side as usuall mirrors like in bathroom), it is there just to fit separate modules in the case, some projectors do not have it and beam goes into scanner only through dichros. So the setup might be even less complicated.

Quick note on the FS bounce mirrors, they make alignment a hell of a lot easier too - both for the lasers and the galvos. I've often used 2-3 for the lasers to center the beams on the dichros (without having to adjust the height of each module) and a further one or two for alignment on the galvo mirrors.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:28 PM #9
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt90 View Post
Thanks for the replies - I'm glad to hear it is possible. I am trying to do things as cheaply as possible, so the image projector is probably a no-go. With regards to the rest of the advice, I was lost at the word go! Would you mind breaking it down into layman terms? Or giving me a few pointers of how to get started?
Cheers.
What Country are you in? You need to check the Laws of that Country regarding outdoor laser displays and requirements for use and handling of lasers in general for whatever purpose---proper safety procedures as well as liability issues as regards exposing other people to laser radiation, if that is a possibility.

The days of unregulated "Bat Signal" use are long over.

If in USA, then you better check on the legality of what you want to do if it involves lasers outdoors --- the Law, Rules, And Regulations pertaining to doing it.
Would guess you need to meet FDA Laser Light Show requirements if it involves lasers and perhaps will need FAA approval as well depending.
Who owns the mountain--you--is it a part of property/land you own? You might need permission to laser project on it if not your land/mountain, as well meet any Federal/FDA/FAA requirments, depending on laws in your State.

"Any laser demonstrations, displays or shows that use lasers above 5 milliwatts must have a “variance” from FDA. This document gives the variance holder permission to “vary” from the 5 milliwatt limit, by using more power.
Additionally, a successful laser light show variance application must also contain what is known as a “Show Report” which can be created using FDA Form 3640 “Reporting Guide for Laser Light Shows and Displays.” This report is a more comprehensive look at how you intent to use the laser, and asks for more details about proposed safety measures."
From: U.S. laser laws and regulations

"In the United States, all outdoor laser shows must be submitted to the Federal Aviation Administration. The plans must comply with FAA Advisory Circular 70-1 in terms of beam location, power and brightness. FAA will advise if any changes are needed. Once any objections have been met, FAA issues a "Letter of Non-Objection”. This means that the show as submitted is not a hazard to aviation and thus FAA will not object to the show" "Even then, the show is further reviewed for safety compliance by the Food and Drug Administration. If FAA does not object, and FDA sees no additional concerns, the outdoor laser show then receives an FDA "variance" so it can legally proceed."
from: Laser Pointer Safety - ILDA and safe use of outdoor laser shows

See: https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitti.../ucm118907.htm

See also: https://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutF.../UCM081634.pdf

And if a "variance" is need this is the application. https://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutF.../UCM080788.pdf

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Old 05-05-2017, 09:42 PM #10
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encap View Post
You better check on the legality of what you want to do if it involves lasers outdoors and the Law, Rules, And Regulations for doing it.-would guess you need to meet FDA Laser Light Show requirements and perhpas will need FAA approval as well depending. ASl who ownes the mountain--you? You might need permission to laser project on it as well.

"Any laser demonstrations, displays or shows that use lasers above 5 milliwatts must have a “variance” from FDA. This document gives the variance holder permission to “vary” from the 5 milliwatt limit, by using more power.
Additionally, a successful laser light show variance application must also contain what is known as a “Show Report” which can be created using FDA Form 3640 “Reporting Guide for Laser Light Shows and Displays.” This report is a more comprehensive look at how you intent to use the laser, and asks for more details about proposed safety measures."
From: U.S. laser laws and regulations

"In the United States, all outdoor laser shows must be submitted to the Federal Aviation Administration. The plans must comply with FAA Advisory Circular 70-1 in terms of beam location, power and brightness. FAA will advise if any changes are needed. Once any objections have been met, FAA issues a "Letter of Non-Objection”. This means that the show as submitted is not a hazard to aviation and thus FAA will not object to the show" "Even then, the show is further reviewed for safety compliance by the Food and Drug Administration. If FAA does not object, and FDA sees no additional concerns, the outdoor laser show then receives an FDA "variance" so it can legally proceed."
from: Laser Pointer Safety - ILDA and safe use of outdoor laser shows

See: https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitti.../ucm118907.htm

See also: https://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutF.../UCM081634.pdf

And if a "varience" is need this is the application. https://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutF.../UCM080788.pdf
Yep, all good points! If you're not in the US, check the regulations that apply to your country, most have rules about these things.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:58 PM #11
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Quote:
Originally Posted by diachi View Post
Quick note on the FS bounce mirrors, they make alignment a hell of a lot easier too - both for the lasers and the galvos. I've often used 2-3 for the lasers to center the beams on the dichros (without having to adjust the height of each module) and a further one or two for alignment on the galvo mirrors.
That makes sense.

For one single laser projector - what might be the only option with decent laser for that purpose for the money as 350 bucks is really not much - the alignment should require just adjustment of galvo scanner, so should not be much problem at all, what I see in my projector the galvos seem they might be adjusted right in the scanner (no need to try it yet however). Anyway it is a very good point from diachi.

And what Encap mentioned, legislation might be a problem especially when projected like this. But I suppose OP has solved it somehow.
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"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."


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405 nm | 500 mW | Wicked Lasers Lunar
445 nm | 3.5 W | Wicked Lasers Arctic
473 nm | 100 mW | Jet Lasers PL-E Pro (Review)
520 nm | 1 W | Wicked Lasers Krypton
532 nm | 100 mW | Wicked Lasers Evo
532 nm | 800 mW | Sky Lasers PL

532 nm | 1.4+ W | Optotronics RPL-II
589 nm | 50 mW | Dragon Lasers Spartan
635 nm | 750 mW | Wicked Lasers Inferno
1 W RGB projector
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:22 PM #12
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

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My budget could stretch to about $350. How far would that get me?
Even if you got the projector for free (likely well over $10,000 in itself for the range you want), $350 isn't enough to buy decent SOFTWARE. Ditch the idea.
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:36 PM #13
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Even if you got the projector for free (likely well over $10,000 in itself for the range you want), $350 isn't enough to buy decent SOFTWARE. Ditch the idea.

Or find a professional with the equipment and hire them to do the job for however long you need. Likely still above your budget, even for only one night of projecting... Still cheaper than getting your own hardware/software/training unless this is something you want to do often.
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Last edited by diachi; 05-05-2017 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 05-06-2017, 06:48 PM #14
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

$350 won't be enough for this by a long shot. As others have mentioned, legislation is very important. Illegal/dangerous techniques for branding purposes will completely destroy your brand ironically.
You are talking about a multiple watt system, with high end software capable of displaying custom graphics and at a very small scanning angle. Nothing rings cheap for me.
You've had great advice, but your budget and past experience will let this project down unfortunately. Even hiring will cost more than $350.
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Last edited by CurtisOliver; 05-06-2017 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:03 PM #15
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

Yea your gonna need like a 20watt projector to have it show up decently.. just had another fellow laserist do some logos at a festival.. I think he used a 30 watt.. hunter Owen of laserwolf
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:33 PM #16
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Default Re: Novice needing advise on projecting logo

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Originally Posted by 10fenny View Post
Yea your gonna need like a 20watt projector to have it show up decently.. just had another fellow laserist do some logos at a festival.. I think he used a 30 watt.. hunter Owen of laserwolf
Even "the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry"

Looks like it is back to the daydream world drawingboard for OP Mt90 on this idea.

Last edited by Encap; 05-07-2017 at 02:01 PM.
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