If you care about lasers and your right to own and import them, READ THIS!!!!

An opportunity to make a difference (this applies directly to our US hobbyists, but the concept applies in general to ALL laser hobbyists throughout the world):

As a community of hobbyists, our community could benefit GREATLY from some public representation. The reason for this is that when the time comes for our politicians to decide what new legislation is necessary regarding lasers and how to implement it, there is no one representing our interests. There are people that represent the interests of all other laser users, so an offer has been extended by a person that I believe really can help us make our voices heard.

I don't claim to have much knowledge of how the whole system works, but I do feel that there are members here who would make excellent delegates for the formation of an organization to represent the interests of laser hobbyists. This isn't the first time that hobbyists and recreational users of a technology have done this, amateur radio being a prime example, and the government will listen to our input. Of course there is never a guarantee that they will agree with all of our input, but just having an opportunity to give our piece in the formation of any future legislation would be priceless towards helping guarantee that we will be able to legally tinker with lasers for years to come

To clarify, I'd like to try to keep discussion along the lines of formation of a committee or group of representatives which would form an entity representing the interests of laser hobbyists in general.

I don't have anything against discussing the various ideas people have, but before any ideas about changes that could/should be made, we need a concrete body to deliver the ideas to the ears of the legislature.

This thread is simply for discussion about this topic. This is important to the future of the laser hobby, and could bring laser hobbyists recognition as LEGITIMATE users of lasers and protect our ability to enjoy this rewarding pastime. ALL input is appreciated, but let's keep it on topic.

background checks and age limits? I see nothing wrong with this.
I'd even be okay with a type of national registry of laser owners and a licensing process.
I'd even encourage it. The responsible "hobbyists" and even career laser people shouldn't have a problem with it.
I think the laws should be somewhere similar to operating ham radios and firearms.

EF --
I have been reading the "civil" posts between you and Steve at LSRFAQ. I admire you making the first step here for the hobby. Like any Hobby, lasers, shooting sports etc, there will be those with no responsibility and absue technology. This is the needed input as Steve stated. +1 to both of you for starting to work together. We have the same "sport".

HMike

I do believe that they shouldn't be out lawed but I think having to register lasers like guns to be a little excessive. Just because they can cause damage, doesn't mean they have to.

If we followed this standard, we would be having to register knives and electric tools because they COULD be dangerous.

i'm also for discussion. Historically, government has been on the side of small self regualated industry. I'm also for implementation of governement rules that will still allow responsible hobbyists to own and operate lasers. Do i know what those rules should be? I haven't a clue.

good post Pat

Michael.

Please consider holding off on advocating the background checks, those of us in the other "permit" system, nor those in the three major state laser permit systems, do not have to do that, nor do the Ham radio folks. Don't concede your rights so quickly, and minors cannot sign for a BGC on their own. BGCs are expensive and done at state/local level, opening you to different rules for different localities. If sheriff so and so does not wish to sign your card, on his/her principle, your screwed.

Here is what you need to get started:

Choose whom you wish speak for carefully. Science/Industry/medical already has LIA, Display already has their group. It is not wise to be in conflict, nor do you wish to change existing permit systems, unless you like running into a brick wall. You need consent, not conflict. For example only in two or three states do scientists or industrial users have to register their lasers, and they will NOT be happy if someone else attempts changes to add paperwork or costs to their situation.

Don't try to tell, say automakers or university scientists that they need to license/train their staff, their lobbyists will bury your interests. Those entities have been at this for a long, long, time. It is not wise to wake sleeping dragons. Speaking for both users and makers also opens a can of worms.

A Nonprofit Corporation

A small board of directors

A code of Ethics (ethics committee must be different from board)

A spokesperson and deputy spokesperson who can think on their feet. (US citizenship, age of majority, able to be trusted, able to negotiate, able to spend time on projects, able to write)

A Domestic US sponsor(s) in compliance with existing rules.
(optional, thorny issues if you do.)
(Avoid sponsors with non US ties, government is very sensitive about this)
(Avoid taking funds from those violating import rules, unless you like RICO prosecution, or having to register as a foreign lobbyist)

Airfare and hotel twice a year for the two spokespeople and one designated safety specialist.

A policy (Expect policy to exclude/alienate some if not all users, and some manufacturers, its inevitable, decide whom you wish to sacrifice, and what is the age of majority)

Someone who can answer a phone during ETZ business hours.

A competent technical advisory board ie engineers, grad students, etc who can read IEC, ANSI, 21 CFR 1040, and have access to scientific literature.

Patience.

An annual board meeting some place.

A program of qualifying and testing users using a clone of the ARRL volunteer examiner system (Do not fall into the trap of having paid, professional, examiners)

No rep, no ranks, and expect to have take a while to get results, for every move forward, there will be ten setbacks.

Graded licensing of some form.

ARRL, ILDA, NSSF, AOPA are examples to look at.

OK, lets see with what you come up with, within those constraints.

Existing Precedent counts for more then you might think.

I'll back off now.

Steve

Another thought, If we were to ask for lasers to be registered, I believe the hobby would quickly fade away fast.

First, an age limit (18) would make me personally not able to continue making lasers. I do understand the point is to weed out irresponsibility, but there are some people (I feel as though I am one of them) that is responsible enough to handle a laser safely. On the other hand, I know many people my age that clearly are not. I also know people older than 18 that are not responsible enough either.

Second, if we were to require registering, it would become a pain in the ass to register for those people who make lots of them. I can't imagine Jay having to register his.

Last, If we did register, the government would no doubt charge a fine for registering and give us lots of paperwork every time we got another one. When we are talking about lasers in greater quantities, again using Jay as an example, the fines would be HUGE.

I'd like to devote whatever resources I have to the cause. I would be willing to write letters and what not to whoever I think would listen.

I know it goes against the purpose of the thread, but I still think someone with camera skills should make a basic laser safety video and send it to the media. The only sure thing that will stop laser incidents is education in laser safety. Most people see them as harmless toys which is a belief that we need to get out of everyone heads but it must be done in a way that doesn't endanger our hobby. Not a very easy task...

Second, if we were to require registering, it would become a pain in the ass to register for those people who make lots of them. I can't imagine Jay having to register his.

Last, If we did register, the government would no doubt charge a fine for registering and give us lots of paperwork every time we got another one. When we are talking about lasers in greater quantities, again using Jay as an example, the fines would be HUGE.[/QUOTE]

Start with educating yourselves. The lack of understanding of common citizens of how government functions with respect to manufacturing and licensing is appalling, and government's lack of explaining it is equally worse.

A shining example of doing it right:

FCC: Wireless Services: Amateur Radio Service: Amateur Licensing

I paid 6$ 20 years ago for my license, and have not paid another dollar. I can swap radios at will, no paperwork for handhelds, mobiles, and base stations. Only certain fixed operations involving retransmission of signals or in a few locations next to sensitive radar sites need additional approval. I only need refile if I change location by changing home address, and that is free. I can operate for all practical purposes ANYWHERE, ANYTIME in the US and in half of the free world. Fines are extremely rare in Ham Radio, and sliding scale based on ability to pay.

Manufacturing has no fees in the existing US system, only paperwork and yearly record keeping.
(ask Mr F. Chimp for more details) Makes you wonder why existing makers do not protect themselves by doing the paperwork?? There is a form of Due Process before you get fined. Fines are rare.

I've got a very late project to finish up, I'll see this thread in a week. Good luck.
Steve

I don't have anything against discussing the various ideas people have, but before any ideas about changes that could/should be made, we need a concrete body to deliver the ideas to the ears of the legislature.[/U][/B][/QUOTE]

Just a little advice, the only time you deal directly with Congresscritters is a last resort. I'm told except for very grass roots methods, by private citizens, the cost of a lobbyist is about 2000$ a hour. You work with agencies and advisory groups, not with congress.

Is your time better spent on Education? Compliance with existing rules?



Steve

I have my Ham radio license to. It doesn't mean anything. it means you read a book and passed a test.

He wanted to register these lasers. Every one. Not a license to have.

I can tell people here are going to get all emotional and throw temper tantrums so I am going to leave this thread alone. Do what you want.

If you want more control from the government so you have to get a permit to wipe your ass by yourself, more power too you. Follow the sheep.

See ya

I think this is a great idea in principle. In fact I was surprised that there wasn't a laser user/hobbyist organization established already. I have been involved with the two national user groups for sport rocketry (another highly regulated activity) for many years and they have certainly made a difference in our ability to purchase and fly high-power rocket motors. Rocket motors up to a certain size can be purchased by anyone. Beyond that power there is a three-level certification process that is now part of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) standards. I think there are a number of parallels that could be drawn between the two activities. For example, rocketry has a written safety code, and the laser hobby could have one too. I have found that the more you self-regulate, the more the state and federal regulatory agencies will take you seriously. The California Office of the State Fire Marshal accepts the certification testing paperwork from the national user groups as part of their process to authorize rocket motors in that state.

Toaster said:

Another thought, If we were to ask for lasers to be registered, I believe the hobby would quickly fade away fast.

First, an age limit (18) would make me personally not able to continue making lasers. I do understand the point is to weed out irresponsibility, but there are some people (I feel as though I am one of them) that is responsible enough to handle a laser safely. On the other hand, I know many people my age that clearly are not. I also know people older than 18 that are not responsible enough either.

Second, if we were to require registering, it would become a pain in the ass to register for those people who make lots of them. I can't imagine Jay having to register his.

Last, If we did register, the government would no doubt charge a fine for registering and give us lots of paperwork every time we got another one. When we are talking about lasers in greater quantities, again using Jay as an example, the fines would be HUGE.

Click to expand...

I completely agree what is said here. I am 15, but very responsible with lasers. It because I know how to use them and the safety. Age dose not always mean everything. Me being 15 can handle a high powered laser very well. But then if I give it to a 35 year old he could just be careless with it and shine it at a plane or what have you. So just like the old saying "its not the size its how you use it" referring to lasers its "its not how old you are, its how much you know about the safety on lasers" :beer:

Here's the facts of the matter as I see them:

First, this thread isn't meant to be for discussing methods of control. I'm not surprised that there is a bit of that going on, but I'd prefer if it was kept to a minimum.

Second, there are some real, concrete problems presenting themselves that have come about over the last few years regarding publicly and easily available high-powered lasers, mostly portables because of how easy they are to tote around. Sooner or later these problems will prompt government action. That much is inevitable. To me, the only thing that we can do to preserve our hobby as it is right now (or something close to it anyway) is for us to stand up for ourselves and present good, logical reasons why we should exist, and what we suggest for combating these problems. To do that we need some form of representation, a concrete group of people who can pass along our ideas to those who need to hear it. Steve, or LSRFAQ, is likely able to help steer this process to the right ears.. while we have our disagreements, I know that to be the case.

No one should be suggesting that there could be licenses or age limits or anything like that at this point. Those are topics to be discussed once we have some idea how to create some sort of representative group.

i feel LPF already has the infrastructure to start this. I don't know c0lds intentions towards this. But i proposed registration and a card with member number a long time ago. the AMA has it, model rocketry has it and many other hobby oriented groups as well. Even the industry i currently work in has an organization and self imposed rules. I wish i had the means to be of more help. So currently i can only offer ideas.

also i want to make the distinction between registration cards and licenses. I think we should be registered but i don't feel a license is necessary.
michael.