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It doesn't say anything about what is permissible. It just says that the level where it is
dangerous is way above levels where you begin to smell something or irritation happens.
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fogger + glycerin = acrolein??
- Thread starter jantran
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It doesn't say anything about what is permissible. It just says that the level where it is
dangerous is way above levels where you begin to smell something or irritation happens.
I haven't said that. I've said I believe the opposite actually.
So you're saying we can "see" acrolein and similar stuff by just looking on the walls after use? If so, okay, we'll really appreciate some before and after pictures with explanation of what we're seeing, if you'll have the time.
I think you've missed the point of why I made this topic, which was because I *had* used glycerin and water for quite some time before I had learned of these issues. So no, I don't want to use anything which will harm my lungs. But knowing if I have harmed my lungs already? I wouldn't mind that. Minor irritation and cough is one thing, internal bleeding, cancer and death which I've read acrolein may lead to is a little more scary...
And I think others here wouldn't mind using an old, outdated, poor quality but *harmless* mixture, this is after all laserpointerforum, laser pointers cost less than laser projectors, price of fog juice might be more of an issue for people here.
Well that's a relief. Not a "silent killer".
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Quote:
So you're saying we can "see" acrolein and similar stuff by just looking on the walls after use? If so, okay, we'll really appreciate some before and after pictures with explanation of what we're seeing, if you'll have the time.
End Quote.
So If I cut open a used fogger and find tar, that means partial combustion occurred, which means all sorts of organics will be there. Which will allow me to infer based on playing with/working with chemicals since I was 14, that the conditions were ripe for making organics such as Acrolein. To actually find out if its there, I need a fresh sample of the tar and send it off to a lab.
Since I worked for a university before becoming a field service engineer, I call in a favor either at the local one, or I drive a Hour and a half to Kecked's facilty. If I have some money to spend, I send it off to a lab for a test called a FTIR or a Gas Chromatograph. Neither instrument is cheap, test would cost between 50$ and 300$ for the lab to run.
That does not tell me how much is there, it simply is go/ no go. I'm mentioning that fact for a reason I will get to later.
Quote:
I think you've missed the point of why I made this topic, which was because I *had* used glycerin and water for quite some time before I had learned of these issues. So no, I don't want to use anything which will harm my lungs. But knowing if I have harmed my lungs already? I wouldn't mind that. Minor irritation and cough is one thing, internal bleeding, cancer and death which I've read acrolein may lead to is a little more scary...
End quote.
Here is what we're going to do. You guys with no budget are going to switch to a very safe method, and the lasers will look better indoors. You buy a small ultrasonic humidifier from the local drug store or Ebay. You get a gallon of distilled water from the drug store or grocery store. This is so the water has no bacteria or yeast in it. Its also because tap water usually clogs the humidifier pretty quickly. You add a small amount of drug store USP grade
Glycerin to the water (yes, the evil Glycerin) You now have a tiny Haze machine with a OK hang time. Its very cheap to run. You clean it with dish soap and water before use, so you have no bacteria growth.
Its very safe, there is No combustion or cracking and the fluids in your lungs will break down the few droplets that make it past your nose to harmless sugars.
Now we get to the orders of magnitude part.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know how long you have been inhaling the home made smoke. I doubt it has been every night for weeks. This will take a while to explain.
OK, On one side of the door to where I work, Vodka and Jello are foods.
On the home side, I could pour vodka into a cup and drink it, legally. Jello is a fun food that makes you fat.
I cross the line between the two worlds by going into my lab.. I'm not allowed to drink any beverages in my lab or eat. The food could be instantly contaminated in theory, but not in practice, unless I'm wearing dirty gloves. Now the Vodka is Ethanol, and to handle it, it needs to be in a fume hood that sucks air in from the lab and blows it out the roof. I need to wear safety glasses, a white lab coat, and gloves when handling the Ethanol. We'd call the jello a lab gelatin, and use it for a base material for making holographic film. Its pretty much the same material, but now I buy it based on purity and molecular weight. At home these two chemicals can go into the trash, and down the sink. At work, that is breaking the law. The alcohol goes into a tub named "non halogen flammable waste, and the jello is dried out in the hood and put in a bucket, labeled for disposal. Every two weeks a person like Kecked (yeah the guy from the other forum, its what he does for a living) sends a team to get the waste, they check if we're following the rules, wearing the gear, and if the air hood is working correctly. They sample the air to make sure nothing harmful is in it. And they open our cupboards to make sure we don't store acids with organics. We take classes every six months on all the rules, and there is a test.
In that lab world, Acrolein is pretty bad. Its bad because you may work in that lab (or a Stage or Theatre) for 30 years, and your body has a tendency to store bad stuff. That is "Chronic" exposure. It adds up and at some point it may or may not harm you. Lots depend on your genetics, how much you exercise, how much water you drink, many factors.
The risk factors for chemicals that are not instantly lethal or damaging are mostly worked out for chronic exposures. Acrolein is not so toxic that small exposures kill you instantly. You need persistent exposure to the chemical.
Right now, I'm willing to strongly suggest you do not have Chronic exposure. You have a few short term exposures. Acrolein is produced every time you fry a steak in a kitchen. Every time you fry fatty foods. Just like in the lab, a blower in your kitchen sucks most of it away from the stove, up the chimney. You've actually ate it, unless your a vegetarian.
The danger in using homemade fluid would be a chronic exposure in a confined space. If you worked in a niteclub or theatre or amusement hall, or you used the fog machine in a tiny room at home, time after time after time, then the risk builds.
The other danger is using the wrong material. You used Glycerin, which is very common. You said you did not perceive much of burning smell, so good odds your machine is working properly. You did not use accidentally something very toxic like Ethylene Glycol or a very hazardous Chlorinated Glycol.
I would not loose sleep over it. I would not worry about it. The allowable 8 hour daily dose for a well working Fog Machine is 10 milligrams per cubic meter. That is a huge amount of Glycerin or Glycol that has been shown to be reasonably safe. Doing some rough math, that works out to be a small raindrop sized bead of fog fluid for every 5 cubic meters.
You then have to evaluate how much fog really makes it to your lungs. The answer is NOT MUCH. The mucus in your throat and the lipids (sticky fluid) at the tops of lungs catch most of the droplets, and routes the toxins for disposal. If things are working well, you breath out much of what you breath in because the fog droplets are very small. Your body has filter mechanisms that catch much of the debris in the air.
To actually get a number, we'd need a air sampler running for hours with the fog machine going in the space you used. It collects fog in a stream of air and uses a focused weak laser to measure the light scattering. That is overkill at this time.
You'll have to fill us in on how much you have used the unit, but unless your doing full length commercial shows night after night after night, odds you don't have the chronic exposure.
That good enough? Switch to the humidifier, Clive suggested it. You'll be fine. No point in being paranoid.
Steve
There are good reasons for the above
So you're saying we can "see" acrolein and similar stuff by just looking on the walls after use? If so, okay, we'll really appreciate some before and after pictures with explanation of what we're seeing, if you'll have the time.
End Quote.
So If I cut open a used fogger and find tar, that means partial combustion occurred, which means all sorts of organics will be there. Which will allow me to infer based on playing with/working with chemicals since I was 14, that the conditions were ripe for making organics such as Acrolein. To actually find out if its there, I need a fresh sample of the tar and send it off to a lab.
Since I worked for a university before becoming a field service engineer, I call in a favor either at the local one, or I drive a Hour and a half to Kecked's facilty. If I have some money to spend, I send it off to a lab for a test called a FTIR or a Gas Chromatograph. Neither instrument is cheap, test would cost between 50$ and 300$ for the lab to run.
That does not tell me how much is there, it simply is go/ no go. I'm mentioning that fact for a reason I will get to later.
Quote:
I think you've missed the point of why I made this topic, which was because I *had* used glycerin and water for quite some time before I had learned of these issues. So no, I don't want to use anything which will harm my lungs. But knowing if I have harmed my lungs already? I wouldn't mind that. Minor irritation and cough is one thing, internal bleeding, cancer and death which I've read acrolein may lead to is a little more scary...
End quote.
Here is what we're going to do. You guys with no budget are going to switch to a very safe method, and the lasers will look better indoors. You buy a small ultrasonic humidifier from the local drug store or Ebay. You get a gallon of distilled water from the drug store or grocery store. This is so the water has no bacteria or yeast in it. Its also because tap water usually clogs the humidifier pretty quickly. You add a small amount of drug store USP grade
Glycerin to the water (yes, the evil Glycerin) You now have a tiny Haze machine with a OK hang time. Its very cheap to run. You clean it with dish soap and water before use, so you have no bacteria growth.
Its very safe, there is No combustion or cracking and the fluids in your lungs will break down the few droplets that make it past your nose to harmless sugars.
Now we get to the orders of magnitude part.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know how long you have been inhaling the home made smoke. I doubt it has been every night for weeks. This will take a while to explain.
OK, On one side of the door to where I work, Vodka and Jello are foods.
On the home side, I could pour vodka into a cup and drink it, legally. Jello is a fun food that makes you fat.
I cross the line between the two worlds by going into my lab.. I'm not allowed to drink any beverages in my lab or eat. The food could be instantly contaminated in theory, but not in practice, unless I'm wearing dirty gloves. Now the Vodka is Ethanol, and to handle it, it needs to be in a fume hood that sucks air in from the lab and blows it out the roof. I need to wear safety glasses, a white lab coat, and gloves when handling the Ethanol. We'd call the jello a lab gelatin, and use it for a base material for making holographic film. Its pretty much the same material, but now I buy it based on purity and molecular weight. At home these two chemicals can go into the trash, and down the sink. At work, that is breaking the law. The alcohol goes into a tub named "non halogen flammable waste, and the jello is dried out in the hood and put in a bucket, labeled for disposal. Every two weeks a person like Kecked (yeah the guy from the other forum, its what he does for a living) sends a team to get the waste, they check if we're following the rules, wearing the gear, and if the air hood is working correctly. They sample the air to make sure nothing harmful is in it. And they open our cupboards to make sure we don't store acids with organics. We take classes every six months on all the rules, and there is a test.
In that lab world, Acrolein is pretty bad. Its bad because you may work in that lab (or a Stage or Theatre) for 30 years, and your body has a tendency to store bad stuff. That is "Chronic" exposure. It adds up and at some point it may or may not harm you. Lots depend on your genetics, how much you exercise, how much water you drink, many factors.
The risk factors for chemicals that are not instantly lethal or damaging are mostly worked out for chronic exposures. Acrolein is not so toxic that small exposures kill you instantly. You need persistent exposure to the chemical.
Right now, I'm willing to strongly suggest you do not have Chronic exposure. You have a few short term exposures. Acrolein is produced every time you fry a steak in a kitchen. Every time you fry fatty foods. Just like in the lab, a blower in your kitchen sucks most of it away from the stove, up the chimney. You've actually ate it, unless your a vegetarian.
The danger in using homemade fluid would be a chronic exposure in a confined space. If you worked in a niteclub or theatre or amusement hall, or you used the fog machine in a tiny room at home, time after time after time, then the risk builds.
The other danger is using the wrong material. You used Glycerin, which is very common. You said you did not perceive much of burning smell, so good odds your machine is working properly. You did not use accidentally something very toxic like Ethylene Glycol or a very hazardous Chlorinated Glycol.
I would not loose sleep over it. I would not worry about it. The allowable 8 hour daily dose for a well working Fog Machine is 10 milligrams per cubic meter. That is a huge amount of Glycerin or Glycol that has been shown to be reasonably safe. Doing some rough math, that works out to be a small raindrop sized bead of fog fluid for every 5 cubic meters.
You then have to evaluate how much fog really makes it to your lungs. The answer is NOT MUCH. The mucus in your throat and the lipids (sticky fluid) at the tops of lungs catch most of the droplets, and routes the toxins for disposal. If things are working well, you breath out much of what you breath in because the fog droplets are very small. Your body has filter mechanisms that catch much of the debris in the air.
To actually get a number, we'd need a air sampler running for hours with the fog machine going in the space you used. It collects fog in a stream of air and uses a focused weak laser to measure the light scattering. That is overkill at this time.
You'll have to fill us in on how much you have used the unit, but unless your doing full length commercial shows night after night after night, odds you don't have the chronic exposure.
That good enough? Switch to the humidifier, Clive suggested it. You'll be fine. No point in being paranoid.
Steve
There are good reasons for the above
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Hi guys, I'm the asshole from the "other forum" who is suspected of being tied to the e-sig industry (lol). Let's also assume I'm a complete dumbass, so don't listen to what I have to say myself, but you deserve to know this:
The "ultrasonic room humidifier" idea Steve is talking about here was given to him by Clive Mitchell in the other forum, after I got tired of all this and asked another forum member (zorn) to notify him about the debate going on.
Here's what he had to say besides giving an idea to use a humidifier:
Now I'm not saying anything. I'm just quoting him. So me being an asshole, stupid, e-cig activist, or whatever is irrelevant.
So jantran, according to what Clive said if what you said (no smell, no irritation, etc.) is true, you should be fine regardless of how much fog you produced with your fogger.
And the 4th point of the argument that "The generated acrolein is very little for our noses or eyes to notice, but even at those levels it is very toxic." is not the case according to the World Health Organizaton article (again, not me) you linked to youself. Clive doesn't even think enough acrolein will be produces at all, but if your skeptical of him, you will detect bad smell and irritation from dangerous amount of acrolein (which isnt much at all) is produced according to the WHO, which hasn't happened.
So if you don't believe Clive, you can at least believe the WHO and your own nose and respiratory tract senses.
A this point from what everyone has said (except me of course), it's possible that commercial fluids have chemicals to even further lower the amount of acrolein and other harmless chemical production which is very helpful for situations when something breaks in the fog machine as someone said in "the other forum". But in regular situations, according to Clive, it's all good and accrdidng to WHO, if it isn't, you'd feel it, and you and some others I've talked with haven't noticed.
But like Steve and Clive have said, there are good reasons to not do this for commercial purposes.
The "ultrasonic room humidifier" idea Steve is talking about here was given to him by Clive Mitchell in the other forum, after I got tired of all this and asked another forum member (zorn) to notify him about the debate going on.
Here's what he had to say besides giving an idea to use a humidifier:
Now I'm not saying anything. I'm just quoting him. So me being an asshole, stupid, e-cig activist, or whatever is irrelevant.
So jantran, according to what Clive said if what you said (no smell, no irritation, etc.) is true, you should be fine regardless of how much fog you produced with your fogger.
And the 4th point of the argument that "The generated acrolein is very little for our noses or eyes to notice, but even at those levels it is very toxic." is not the case according to the World Health Organizaton article (again, not me) you linked to youself. Clive doesn't even think enough acrolein will be produces at all, but if your skeptical of him, you will detect bad smell and irritation from dangerous amount of acrolein (which isnt much at all) is produced according to the WHO, which hasn't happened.
So if you don't believe Clive, you can at least believe the WHO and your own nose and respiratory tract senses.
A this point from what everyone has said (except me of course), it's possible that commercial fluids have chemicals to even further lower the amount of acrolein and other harmless chemical production which is very helpful for situations when something breaks in the fog machine as someone said in "the other forum". But in regular situations, according to Clive, it's all good and accrdidng to WHO, if it isn't, you'd feel it, and you and some others I've talked with haven't noticed.
But like Steve and Clive have said, there are good reasons to not do this for commercial purposes.
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And the 4th point of the argument that "The generated acrolein is very little for our noses or eyes to notice, but even at those levels it is very toxic." is not the case according to the World Health Organizaton article (again, not me) you linked to youself. Clive doesn't even think enough acrolein will be produces at all, but if your skeptical of him, you will detect bad smell and irritation from dangerous amount of acrolein (which isnt much at all) is produced according to the WHO, which hasn't happened.
So if you don't believe Clive, you can at least believe the WHO and your own nose and respiratory tract senses.
Let me make two points to clarify:
1. Chronic (Chronos means Time in Greek) exposure to Acrolein is very toxic, and long term (months and years above the natural levels) it is linked to contributing to cancer. Which will not stop me from eating a Steak in moderation. I trim the fat off my steaks to keep the cholesterol down.
2. You can't use smell to detect any specific chemical in Fog. There is a very simple explanation:
The other components of the fog with odors will dull your sense of smell. This is called "saturation" and is a well known problem. You end up coating the mucus membranes of the nose with the glycerin or glycol for a short period of time, until you have been out of the fog a few minutes. Your tongue is also "tasting" the smell, and after a initial few seconds, it too, gets saturated. Thus it takes a while for any new smell to diffuse through the Glycerin or Glycol, and weak smells can be overpowered by the fog smell. Get into fresh air, let the Glycerin evaporate, and you can smell again.
One thing they drill into us at work, is "For almost all toxic chemicals with high vapor pressures, If you can smell it, your long past harmful" for chronic exposure conditions. Your sense of smell is a warning to check, and it is well to heed it.
That said, bad fog smells bad for a reason. If it smells bad, there is a VERY strong correlation with chemical danger and its time to leave..
A good modern FOG is almost odorless.
Steve
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The WHO mentions only two chronic studies done on lab animals (for acroelin vapor, that is).
If these studies proved carcinogenity of acrolein and we assumed it would work the same way for humans, it means you would need to work 7 hours for 5 days weekly for a year with no holidays and there would need to be fog constantly for 7 hours.
BigClive said:
buffo from the other forum said:
The glycerin fog by itself is almost odorless, with a weak burnt smell compared to acrolein, but okay.
Notice I wasn't talking only about smell, but irritation as well. So if we'll throw the smell out the window, there's still that.
I'm sure the lab rats and hamsters didn't enjoy these tests. (you can now suspect I'm tied to PETA if you wish, lol)
And I'm talking about all this assuming something wrong happened with the fogger and the produced acrolein isn't negligible (which I think is what Clive said, again not me).
Good idea. I've stopped eating red meat completely for health reasons.Which will not stop me from eating a Steak in moderation. I trim the fat off my steaks to keep the cholesterol down.
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CipherZero, I have no idea what you are, narcissistic, sociopath, etc. But my participation in this discussion is over as you continually insist all experts are wrong and that no home made FOG material whatever is unsafe.
More so I have reason to believe that you continue to PM others questioning the competence of persons who are in a position to know better.
In fact I have reason to believe you have wrote posts for them or are posting under a double names.
Home made fluids should not be used in public and are risky at best in a private situation.
You will be reported to my favorite mod when he gets back from vacation for internal review of your actions. I'll also have a talk with the owner of the "other forum", I know him well. One of his specialties is psychology. I think he will find you a interesting case.
Taking advantage of the gullible /being manipulative by using fake science and debating skills is wrong. You have made it a obsession to push debate in this topic your way. Normal forum humans don't do that.
I'll also have my friend check your IPs, I'm beginning to question if you and Dream/jantan are the same.
Steve
More so I have reason to believe that you continue to PM others questioning the competence of persons who are in a position to know better.
In fact I have reason to believe you have wrote posts for them or are posting under a double names.
Home made fluids should not be used in public and are risky at best in a private situation.
You will be reported to my favorite mod when he gets back from vacation for internal review of your actions. I'll also have a talk with the owner of the "other forum", I know him well. One of his specialties is psychology. I think he will find you a interesting case.
Taking advantage of the gullible /being manipulative by using fake science and debating skills is wrong. You have made it a obsession to push debate in this topic your way. Normal forum humans don't do that.
I'll also have my friend check your IPs, I'm beginning to question if you and Dream/jantan are the same.
Steve
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Hm, that was unexpected at all.
I'll admit that in the "other forum" I had let my emotions get in the way and missed some facts buffo had mentioned the first time (I told that to him publicly) and we both used curse words.
But when it comes to this forum, you can't accuse me of anything.
All your post is a one huge ad hominem attack on me.
If this will make you feel better, I don't have anything to post there or here either anymore. Like I said I just made sure Clive would be notified of that topic and stopped replying, as you might have noticed. And I've just reposted what Clive said in that thread here.
But regarding your latest post:
And I haven't made a claim that *any* homemade fluid is safe. I'd say you're making a "strawman" but it seems using words like that makes you think I'm a "skilled debater" and can manipulate the gullible.
And my participating in this topic is pretty much over as well.
Because your assumptions are a bit too much and crazy: I'm an asshole involved in the e-cig industry who is a psycopath, megalomaniac, whoever doesn't disagree with me like Clive, jantran, ChaosLord, or whoever must be me under a different account or I somehow manipulate them and make them post what I want. Maybe I also hacked the WHO website and edited their text on acrolein?
This is just crazy...
And another, new post by Clive Mitchell in the "other forum" with some good arguments:
I'll admit that in the "other forum" I had let my emotions get in the way and missed some facts buffo had mentioned the first time (I told that to him publicly) and we both used curse words.
But when it comes to this forum, you can't accuse me of anything.
All your post is a one huge ad hominem attack on me.
If this will make you feel better, I don't have anything to post there or here either anymore. Like I said I just made sure Clive would be notified of that topic and stopped replying, as you might have noticed. And I've just reposted what Clive said in that thread here.
But regarding your latest post:
All I've been doing in this forum is quoting other users, their linked scientific articles (written by , well, experts, for example from the World Health Organization) and quoting very experienced people like Clive.
And I haven't made a claim that *any* homemade fluid is safe. I'd say you're making a "strawman" but it seems using words like that makes you think I'm a "skilled debater" and can manipulate the gullible.
And my participating in this topic is pretty much over as well.
You're making things up, you can't prove that. Even if you could, that would still be an ad hominem fallacy, you wouldn't be disproving anything I said (well, *quoted*, actually) here by doing so.
I disagree with that?:
Go ahead. Don't get your hopes up though. As a former administrator in one forum and a moderator I know there are certain things that are encrypted and inaccessible even to administrators, because of a thing called privacy. This includes reading PMs of member. I actually hope it wasn't the case so you could see I hadn't send any PM you mentioned and prove how crazy you're sounding right now...
You're sounding very creepy right now.
Again, I'm not saying anything here, I'm quoting what others have said.
"Normal forum humans"? Seriously? I'm going to let this one slide and just assume you're in a bad mood, or under the influence of alcohol or something...
Because your assumptions are a bit too much and crazy: I'm an asshole involved in the e-cig industry who is a psycopath, megalomaniac, whoever doesn't disagree with me like Clive, jantran, ChaosLord, or whoever must be me under a different account or I somehow manipulate them and make them post what I want. Maybe I also hacked the WHO website and edited their text on acrolein?
This is just crazy...
And another, new post by Clive Mitchell in the "other forum" with some good arguments:
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What data? Are you feeling okay?
No, I went with the strategy of "Agent Provocateur".
I'm fine. I now know what I need to know about you. You are, in my opinion a former forum owner or some other very smart internet related person who came into another forum to have a little fun and be manipulative, or to provoke a reaction. I think you like to play games with human chess pieces. But all I have is your word on that part about the forum owner stuff.
As far as I can tell, you have broken no laws. But you have, in my opinion, came in to one of my favorite places and acted in a way which more then angered some of us.
The jury is out as to what Admin will do over at the "other forum". We can't say the name here, mentioning of ALL other laser forums is banned here.
I think you might see the word "Asshattery" which exists in the other forum's rules. But I have no control over Admin, but he does usually take my calls.
Steve
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Well, sorry , but to be honest with you I think your deduction skills are pretty poor...
Going from a forum owner to a person who enjoys manipulating people like that is illogical.
Go ahead, I couldn't care less.
What I have done is shown people here and there to be skeptical and not fall for scare tactics and later shown that there's not much to worry about and got others like Clive to do that too, because they are so much experienced than me and know more facts and have better arguments.
Even a chemist (kecked) from "the other forum" you mentioned who was on your side changed his opinion later on:
So I think I'm done here or there. If you have friends who can get my account banned, go ahead, I couldn't care less. It was worth it.
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Someone wrote:
" It was worth it"
Pal, I usually come to the forum to teach.
Why, Because I enjoy it. Because people did that for me. Because I serve others.
I err on the side of caution because that is a duty of care in both my job and my hobby. Nobody dies on my watch. That is expected of me,
My only regret is that I did not see through you sooner. Had four wisdom teeth pulled on Friday, that was a distraction.
Why did you come? You came to humiliate, deceive, to wear down, manipulate etc.
I hope you had fun, but you did not "win" anything. You managed to make a tired ole geek and his well meaning friends look bad, and I try to never rest on my laurels/ I can rest my head on my pillow tonight knowing that a lady with vision problems gets a customized camera this week, because I went and volunteered yesterday. I will weather this, it is but a minor storm.
I'm human, We are illogical, I have my faults, but at the end of the day I still win far more then I loose.
Good Bye, I will pray for you.
Steve
" It was worth it"
Pal, I usually come to the forum to teach.
Why, Because I enjoy it. Because people did that for me. Because I serve others.
I err on the side of caution because that is a duty of care in both my job and my hobby. Nobody dies on my watch. That is expected of me,
My only regret is that I did not see through you sooner. Had four wisdom teeth pulled on Friday, that was a distraction.
Why did you come? You came to humiliate, deceive, to wear down, manipulate etc.
I hope you had fun, but you did not "win" anything. You managed to make a tired ole geek and his well meaning friends look bad, and I try to never rest on my laurels/ I can rest my head on my pillow tonight knowing that a lady with vision problems gets a customized camera this week, because I went and volunteered yesterday. I will weather this, it is but a minor storm.
I'm human, We are illogical, I have my faults, but at the end of the day I still win far more then I loose.
Good Bye, I will pray for you.
Steve
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This is just nonsense...
Good bye to you too.
Good bye to you too.
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