Ethical Question about Buying Lasers from Dhgate and Aliexpress

lasersbee said:

I'm not in this member's head...
I go by exactly what is written in the Post.

If he writes "Blue" it is not Green or Red even if
you believe he is saying Red....

He says he knows for a fact... How much clearer
can that be...:thinking:

The OP is obviously asking the consent of the Forum community
to commit Fraud on that seller.


Jerry

Click to expand...

Ok ok.. If he somehow knew "for a fact" that they were underspec.. Like if he worked for them or if the seller admitted to him that every laser he sells is underspec.. Then and only then would i consider that to be unethical. Otherwise, all bets are off.

I know it was only an example...:beer:

As to the OP's statements an questions...
You can spin it anyway you like...

I still believe that what he want's to do is commit Fraud
for financial gain. It is considered a SCAM attempt....


Jerry

lasersbee said:

I know it was only an example...:beer:

As to the OP's statements an questions...
You can spin it anyway you like...

I still believe that what he want's to do is commit Fraud
for financial gain. It is considered a SCAM attempt....


Jerry

Click to expand...

Good :yh:
Now hopefully my laserbee that is turning up this week isn't 80% off lol

As i said, i would find it unethical if he were intentionally "scamming" them with insider knowledge.. But that isn't what i think he was saying.. I am pretty sure, and he can correct me if i am wrong, that he is saying he "knows" they are underspec, like we would say we know they would be underspec. It is purely an assumption and i am sure he doesn't know 100% for sure that the sellers are selling underspec products.

Anyways.. Agree to disagree :beer:

Strangely enough the right to a refund for faulty manufacture in goods in the UK lasts up to 6 years (depending on the purchase price)
Up to 6 months the burden of proof lays with the retailer to show the item was not faulty or miss-described, after 6 months the buyer has to show that the purchase would be reasonably expected to last up to 6 years.(usually depending on price, a £5 laser could not be expected to last 6 years but a £1,000 one could)

Seller warranties don't trump the Sale Of Goods act 1979 or the Misrepresentation Act 1967. Deliberate Misrepresentation of an item can result in Customs & Excise seizing future shipments and destroying them.

Enforcing a countries laws across international boundaries may be an entirely different matter. Seeing how China doesn't seem to recognise international copyrights the chances of suing a Chinese company for losses is pretty remote.

All that said, I agree with Jerry, the whole idea of doing something with the intent of getting financial gain just seems *off* to me even if legal.

Didn't somebody do the same on here to a decent chap and a laser? bought it then made a load of iffy claims to get their money back?

best wishes

Dave

ps: I'm in the Uk so international laws may be considerably different.

Spooky said:

Didn't somebody do the same on here to a decent chap and a laser? bought it then made a load of iffy claims to get their money back?

Click to expand...

Now that was a COMPLETELY different story.. We all know the story so there is no need to rehash..

Personally, I have been thinking of buying off one of these sellers..
They claim 2000mW 532nm for $140. Now, i know that could not possibly be anywhere near the claimed output, BUT, if i were to buy one, test it and say it was only 200mW i would be pissed! And want at least a portion of my money back OR a complete refund and return of the goods.. Now if it were closer to say 500-1000mW then i would call that reasonable and leave it.
Again, i don't think he is saying that he intentionally wants to scam someone.. He just wants to know if it would be ethical to ask for a partial refund for an item that isn't as described.

I am not trying to intentionally scam them since I know that most of them are clearly convinced that their lasers are true power, but on the other hand a 1000mW green for $30 I can say for a fact that it is impossible after going through this forum. (I dont know how to quote people, I will figure it out next time) As for being underspecs the issues is that I dont know by how much. As the example I provided I bought at 1000mW green for $30 it turned out to be 147mW peak, according to the description I could have disputed, but I know that $30 was worth the 147mW laser so I did not do anything because if I did it would clearly be a scam. But the issues is that I like to buy many types of different hosts, and as the other example I bought one for $90 that was supose to be 200mW (this one I didnt not expect to be underspec since it was reasonable). This one turned out to be ~90mW and so I did complain to the seller about it. So in both cases, one I complained and the other one I didn't. Now my question is that knowing the price generally and what to expect, suppose I buy 2 1000mW labelled lasers for $30ea; one turns out to be 150mW and the other 75mW would it be fair enough to dispute the second 75mW one for a partial refund and do nothing for the other one even though both are underspecs. I want to be fair to the seller but then I dont want to loose money either. (I was not considering refund and return option since just return shipping would cost me like $30). Also as for me trying to scam the seller, I told the seller that sold me 1000mW that turned out to be 147mW, I showed him the lpm results but I also said that this is still good, and advised him to change his ad to make it more accurate.

r4mn33k said:

I am not trying to intentionally scam them since I know that most of them are clearly convinced that their lasers are true power, but on the other hand a 1000mW green for $30 I can say for a fact that it is impossible after going through this forum.

Click to expand...

If you know this for a fact in advance of the purchase why would
you want to purchase it besides trying to get it for even less $$
by disputing the transaction as you suggest in the first Post...:thinking:

That would be extortion since you knew for a fact in advance of
the purchase that the Laser will be underspec.

I want to be fair to the seller but then I dont want to loose money either. (I was not considering refund and return option since just return shipping would cost me like $30).

Click to expand...

Then why buy from this seller in the first place if you know for a
fact that the Lasers will be underspec....:thinking:

Since you would need to send the Laser Back for a refund I see
you devised a new strategy...


If you would have opened this Thread stating that you had already
bought a Laser from a first time seller and it is way under the
advertised power we would have all told you to open a dispute to
get a refund...

But instead you knew that a seller was selling Lasers underspec
and before buying from him you asked the Forum community to
condone your want to buy from this seller that you admit you
know for a fact will be underspec and asked if it is OK to open
a dispute against the seller to get the Laser for less money.

Since you did not yet buy the Laser from the seller and you already
have a premeditated plan of how you will proceed to get the known
for a fact underspec Laser for even less.... that is considered a
premeditated scam...

I would suggest that you spend a little more money and buy a
Laser from a reputable company or right here on the Forum...

@Shakenawake...
If I absolutely MUST have a Laser from a company that I know
for a fact sells underspec Lasers I should accept that FACT
without prejudice.

If he had not mentioned his intentions before buying the know
for a fact Underspec Laser I would agree that he was not setting
out to scam the seller.

If I was ripped off after the fact for an expensive Laser I would
contact the Selling venue to report the seller if the seller did not
want to rectify the issues...:beer:


Jerry

It would be their own fault for trying and knowingly mislead.
However ive bought a 5mw that was over a hundred soooo... is it worth the aggravation

This is just like buying an over spec <5mw off Ebay, knowing it will be over spec and then suing Ebay and the seller. It's unethical and wrong to do, remember the old saying 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Now if you buy the laser telling the seller that it will be checked with a calibrated LPM and if found to be under spec, there will be hell to pay that's different. And as you have posted this for the world to see you have expressed the intent to commit fraud and will be libel to prosecution if you go ahead with it.

Exactly my point...

Jerry

I always message the seller about power before buying all confirm that it is full power as advertised, I also tell them that I have a laserbee A and give them the link to the laserbee site so that they can see that the equipment I have is genuine and not a poorly built homemade thing.
to laserbee: As I have said that I know for a FACT that it will be underspec but I dont know HOW MUCH here is another example an extreme one, if a 2 $30 lasers labelled 1000mW, if one turns out to 5mW and the other one 875mW BOTH cases it is TRUE that it is underspec, but if someone complains about the 875mW laser being underspec then the person is clearly out of their mind, but I think that the 5mW would deserve the be disputed since even though I expected lower than 1000mW results, 5mW is way TOO low. The question I am asking is that would it be fair enough. I am not saying that I will buy a laser that I know will be underspec and DISPUTE IT FOR SURE the issue is HOW MUCH lower, and what is the limit of the seller being scammed or the buyer, or where it is a fair deal. As for Ebay pens that is a completely different story, if you message them they will tell you that 5mW is just for ebay selling purposes since ebay does not allow more, the sellers will be honest and tell you the real power. In the case of aliexpress even if you ASK THEM BEFORE PURCHASE they will stick to as advertised. I am not blaming the sellers since most of them are small "dealers" from a larger factory and they just sell what they are provided from the manufacture. Most of them do not even know how to use a lpm and have never used one. Once I asked for lpm readings by one of the sellers and they told me they will ask the factory and then got a picture from there and sent it to me. Another different seller I asked the same thing and I ended up with the SAME picture.

You are looking for bargains and want the seller to pay
the difference in powers that you find unacceptable.

I've said it before........
Why even buy them if you know for a fact that they are
not what is advertised.

Buy your Lasers from a reputable company or on the Forum.



Jerry

ok, here is what has happened to me, from the same seller on aliexpress that was well reputed. I bought a red laser I was told 250mW, I thought ok that should be fine for $30, I bought it turned out to be 176mW. It was underspec but I was happy and bought more lasers from the seller even though I knew a 250mW labelled laser wont be as high. I have yet to receive a red one. But a green I received, that was purchased for $28 it was labelled as 500mW what it does it when I turn it on for a split second its bright and then it drops down to 11mW. Now for the previous red, I was happy and thought that this seller is decent and went ahead with more purchases but then this happens. I was expecting to get about 100mW out of it since the description and video the seller showed me it could easily burn black matches and black tape. Now you are telling me that even though I knew it wont be 500mW but it turned out to be 11mW, if I dispute I will be scamming the seller? What I think of it that the seller scammed me knowing that I will buy more lasers first send me a good product to gain my trust and then once I made my purchases send me garbage.

If your'e in a reselling business they should be some where around the specified power.
A lot of laser buyers are not in forums and do not own power meters..if I bought a 500 and it was 360 that's fair enough.(to me) but I still feel it should be advertised as such
If I bought a 500 that was 11 it would either be faulty or id test the customer service to the hilt.