Arrests?

ElektroFreak said:

I think there might be a little misunderstanding here.. the post you quoted, TJ, was referring to lasers in airspace, but the quote you posted as rebuttal was about maximum power from a laser pointer.

Steve001 is partially incorrect however, and TJ is partially right in responding with power output regs. There is no federal law that says a person cannot shine a laser with a power LESS than 5mW into the air, but the same law that says you cannot use a laser OVER 5mW in public also covers using a laser over 5mW to point in the air.

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I see bad info dispensed over and over so much. People just don't take the time to read these documents correctly.
Unless the law has recently changed the CDRH has no regulatory jurisdiction over what the singular hobbyist does with their laser. Barring intent to interfere or do purposeful harm the federal government nor state or local government cares what the hobbyist does with their laser device.

The misunderstanding occurs because the documents being cited are misinterpreted to include *hobbyists, but actually are concerned with specifically commercial ventures i.e. laser light shows, surveying, scientific applications and any other venture that is put on for **public display. There are no power regulatory limits either. You need to read all of the available documents in their full context not just parts of them and you need to read them more than once if you have not. So to state again unless the law has recently changed what the hobbyist does with their laser is not govern by federal law. By the way the document you cited confirms what I've just written.

*nowhere is that word used or any other word with a similar meaning used in any FDA or FAA or CDRH document that I'm aware of at this time

** this does not mean, imply or include some individual out in public showing off their laser device.

Benm said:

I'm not sure about US legislation, but here in holland its only forbidden to endanger an aircraft, and the danger needs to be proven. If you accidentally shine onto the bottom of an airliner flying over at cruise altitude there obviously is no danger of any kind.

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It's the same here in the US. Intent is what matters

steve001 said:

The misunderstanding occurs because the documents being cited are misinterpreted to include hobbyists, but actually are concerned with specifically commercial ventures i.e. laser light shows, surveying, scientific applications and any other venture that is put on for *public display. There are no power regulatory limits either. Unless the law has recently changed the CDRH has no regulatory jurisdiction over what the singular hobbyist does with their laser. You need to read all of the available document in their full context not just parts of them. So to state again unless the law has recently changed what the hobbyist does with their laser is not govern by federal law. By the way the document you cited confirms what I've just written.

* this does not mean, imply or include some individual out in public showing off their laser device.

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I agree with your assessment. However, the FAA seems to have authority over the use of lasers in "navigable airspace". This paragraph is from Advisory Circular 70-1 dated 12/30/04:

"Any person/proponent who plans to conduct laser operations in the navigable airspace should file notice with the FAA. Navigable airspace is airspace above the minimum altitudes of flight prescribed by regulations including airspace needed for the takeoff and landing of aircraft (49 U.S.C. Section 40102)."

From this, clearly there is airspace that is not subject to the FAA's jurisdiction regarding lasers. Also, I did not read of any particular penalties associated with violating the requirements of the Advisory Circular.

steve001 said:

The misunderstanding occurs because the documents being cited are misinterpreted to include hobbyists, but actually are concerned with specifically commercial ventures i.e. laser light shows, surveying, scientific applications and any other venture that is put on for *public display. There are no power regulatory limits either. Unless the law has recently changed the CDRH has no regulatory jurisdiction over what the singular hobbyist does with their laser. You need to read all of the available document in their full context not just parts of them. So to state again unless the law has recently changed what the hobbyist does with their laser is not govern by federal law. By the way the document you cited confirms what I've just written.

* this does not mean, imply or include some individual out in public showing off their laser device.

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A hobbyist can do anything they want with their laser as long as the beam is confined to their property. As soon as it's off your property it's public. A person out showing off their laser device does, in fact, constitute a public laser display, which is governed directly by the CDRH. To the gov't, in terms of legal variance requirement, there's no difference between a guy with a high-powered laser pointer on a public street corner or at a concert, and the laserist at your local planetarium except that the planetarium will most likely have a variance while the pointer wielder will not. There is no direct requirement that I'm aware of that states that money must change hands. A free laser show producing power over 5mW STILL requires a variance to occur in public unless it's at a school or 100% private event. The equipment involved doesn't matter, whether it's a projector or handheld laser. Even on your own property, as soon as the beam leaves the boundaries of your land or enters navigable airspace it's under CDRH and/or FAA jurisdiction.

There's very little enforcement, so it's not very often that people run into trouble with their laser pointer, but the legality depends on the power of the laser and whether or not a variance exists that allows it's use in public. I'm not the laser police, so I could care less what people do really.

21CFR Sec. 1040.10 Laser products.

"(13)Demonstration laser product means any laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition. The term "demonstration laser product" does not apply to laser products which are not manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for such purposes, even though they may be used for those purposes or are intended to demonstrate other applications."

Lets face it, high powered lasers are designed for entertainment. There is very little other uses for them.

especially high-powered handheld lasers.. pointing at something would be considered "demonstration" too.. I will say that there is too much room for interpretation in the CDRH legalese IMO. I've always thought it should be spelled out with a lot more clarity.

Tech_Junkie said:

Lets face it, high powered lasers are designed for entertainment. There is very little other uses for them.

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The cops that came to my house to 'get me' for using HPLs outdoors with questionable discretion had this same opionon, from my post above. But when they asked me wtf I thought I was doing with these lasers seeing how much trouble I could be in for misusing them, I simlyply told them 'because they're awesome' and I'm an electronics hobbyist aware of the safe use and 'misuse' of these things. Entertainment indeed :beer:

Most cops don't know about CDRH regs, and the rest don't care about that kind of stuff. The exceptions are particlularly anal-retentive cops (who can become a problem for anyone) and police responding to laser pointer vs. aircraft events.

Laser display and commerce legislation is enforced by local CDRH/FDA field office personnel, but not all cities have them. CDRH regulation violations are typically a civil matter, so no arrests or jail time etc.. but there can be fines.

Tech_Junkie said:

Lets face it, high powered lasers are designed for entertainment. There is very little other uses for them.

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Firestarting, emergency signaling, research, IED defusing, remote target illumination (not "pointing"), material etching, defensive weaponry...high powered handheld lasers have been used for all these applications and more. They can certainly be "entertaining" in use, but that does not necessarily mean that they are designed and manufactured for that purpose.

True, but what the CDRH cares about is what happens in public, and what gets imported and how. If your high-powered laser beams become public because they leave your property, then you might have to explain yourself, at least in theory. If it came to that, you could argue the finer points with the gov't to your hearts content, but most people would label that a fool's venture. For those who have a genuine interest in whether their laser-related activities are legal or not, you can always call your local field office and have them break it down to you.

Also, the CDRH is hot to trot right now about handheld lasers. If the gov't were to come after you under suspicion of being in violation of their regs, you'd better hope they don't notice your laser is handheld.. not that it would happen. It would be a very rare occurrence for someone to get in trouble with the CDRH for shining their pointer around in public..

I come from a background of having argued the "finer points" with two different government agencies that regulate my other hobby/business (rocketry), and prevailed both times. These agencies have a habit of over-stepping their congressional authority or just making up regulation as they go...basically law by fiat...without following the required notice-and-comment rulemaking process.

Not sure if it would work with lasers, but if you're down for a headache I say more power to ya!!

I say just play it smart & know the circumstances that follow any possible situation that could arise, wherever you live & whatever you're doing at the time. We all seem to be on the verge of becoming criminals these days, so the safest and most considerate, responsible use of whatever you're doing with lasers at the time is helpful at the least and much appreciated at most :beer:

Well I'm certainly not looking for a fight, but on a personal level I don't like the idea of my rights being infringed or of a goverment wielding unlimited power.

danefex said:

I say just play it smart & know the circumstances that follow any possible situation that could arise, wherever you live & whatever you're doing at the time. We all seem to be on the verge of becoming criminals these days, so the safest and most considerate, responsible use of whatever you're doing with lasers at the time is helpful at the least and much appreciated at most :beer:

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Wise words, Dan!