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Old 11-23-2013, 07:26 AM #17
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

With all due respect.

Bullshit.

No HENE producer is ever going to use a HENE production line to make lamps. The crud coming out of lamp activation, that remains in a vacuum system, would kill a HENE. Lamp cathodes have to be "activated" and its a high temperature process with a lot of carbon and organics release. HENE cathodes are activated with a cold oxygen gas discharge.

REO contracts out much of its tube production process. However vacuum is done in house. Until you have that line identified to two digits after the decimal point, you have no idea if it is Penning ionization of a minute trace of Argon, or a NE collision line.

REO's staff are highly skilled. That would not go un-noticed. Especially since they make dual line HENEs deliberately.

You have not done the obvious, and email REO for a identification. My bet is they know. A new HENE design is too difficult to design and test without measuring single pass gain or checking for competition effects.

If .5% AR from a purchase of Lamp grade neon is there, when diluted between 5:1 or 7:1 I Helium the small signal gain would be amazingly low. Consider that isotopic NE is ordered for HENEs, no way would say Spectra Gasses supply a HENE manufacturer with a contaminated gas. A D2 Bottle of Laser Grade gas is 700$, because of the purity testing. If AR was there, it would show up on the Residual Mass Analyzer on the vacuum system. REO knows vacuum very well, they need UHV levels for the coating chambers.
To get to UHV on a large system, you need a RMA to identify what is remaining in your chamber or laser pumping manifold, to identify leaks and materials coming from things like gaskets and cathode processing.

HeNE is a Penning mix, there is no reason to add AR to lower ionization potential. If you want to prove this, check the side line spectrum and find me neutral AR lines.

Its a NE line, I'm 90% sure of it. Why you and Sam are ignoring the link I sent you, I have no idea.

REO never made indicator lamps.

Also REO has more experience with Ion Laser optics then you might know. They have a optics division, that is their bread and butter. The main REO product for years was superpolished, ion plated, mirrors for cavity optics. I've bought broadband ion laser mirrors from them.


If you want to do science, you need more then anecdotal proof. Welcome to peer review, a part of the scientific method.

Steve



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Old 11-23-2013, 07:59 AM #18
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

You never sent me any links, so I am not ignoring anything. I tried giving you me email, you ignored that, and you haven't messaged me anything on PL about any links.

As far as contacting REO, I have tried. Nobody I talked to on the phone knew anything about the orange tubes. I finally got an email response many months later asking for a serial number.

I am fully aware of REO's optics specialties. Specialty does not remove error by 100%, it simply limits it.

I am fully aware of the Ne 609.6nm line. Hell, I brought that up a day or two after SELEM. This isn't news to me. However, the math done shows 609.05 +/- 1nm. This same math got us 604.6nm, and equally close on the other lines. So the math is there to support the 609.07 line vs 609.6.

You ask why I am ignoring links that you are not providing me, well, why are you ignoring the evidence that I am providing you? There are a couple threads on this. All with supporting evidence.

I agree that I have been lacking in keeping all of it in one place, also, previously mentioned information during the beginning developments were incorrect at times due to lacks of other supporting evidence.

I am fully prepared to accept either outcome, however, there is more to support 609.07 vs 609.6. So logic dictates that I must go with the 609.07.

I do not have a powerful enough spectrum analyzer to get into the nitty gritty to get into 2 sig figs, however, Dr. Johnson has agreed to test it. So unless someone wants to lend me their instrument, which I highly doubt will happen, then this will need to wait until January-February when my visit takes place.

I have lost many hours of sleep researching, reading, and absorbing information on this. The man hours put into just testing of lines along accounts for more hours in 2 days easily. Working with a Verity and writing down figures for surrounding lines when the 609 is out, and when it is in, was tedious enough. Doing it several times when reading 608.5, 609, 609.5, 610? Just to find where it peaks the most? Well... I think I lost a part of my mind when doing this.

Either way, I am all for getting to the bottom of this, and I do respect the 609.6 theory just as much as the other, however, the physical evidence is simply pointing in another direction...

With respect,
Sean

EDIT:

For anyone interested in where we are getting the 609.6nm line. It is mentioned in the book "Gas Lasers" on pg.501. You can "Google books" that and it should come up. Anyway, here is a screenshot from Google books. I recommend this book for anyone that has in depth interest in gas lasers. This book will really open your eyes.

The line, and the other 3 radiative decay lines (including 623.45nm which is not mentioned here) are lightly mentioned in a couple other texts. However this is the one I continuously reference.

Feel free to google "HeNe 609.6nm" or similar phrases if you'd like to read a few other texts. Most are from scientific page hosting sites requiring payment to view documents. I simply don't have that kind of money burning holes in my pockets...

All credit for this image goes to CRC Press, I did not write this material.

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476nm Tunable OMNI 532
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514nm Tunable OMNI 532
520nm 40mW MSV2
532nm Various pointers
543nm GreeNe 2mW
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HeNe/gas reference thread

Last edited by bloompyle; 11-23-2013 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:37 AM #19
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

I just spent 16 hours on a airplane Monday going to where I'm working. figure 5 hours of that as ground delays and layovers. At .82 Mach, calculate where I am, but remember it plots as a circle. Origion of which is Airport code IAD. :-) My phone does not work here, cant get a sim card as I'm not a citizen. Nice Castle down the road, lots of 13th century and 14th century buildings and nice lab tucked into a hill, with Soviet inspired fencing and WWII trenches and tunnels still around it. Now it houses a nice peaceful private company. I need to walk around the city, for I'm in a place I'd never consider for a vacation. Once upon a time this was a numbered city in the Eastern bloc, and not open to foreigners. So its not spoiled like western cities.

The little tiny lot in town center where 13,000 Jews were deported or sent to ovens on trains is left bare and unmarked in tribute.

Unlike the US, you can walk right up to the front door of the Presidents house, just a few cameras and not even a ceremonial guard.

I'm getting my factory training on a laser system I have to install in three weeks. 12 Joules of 532 and the pulse duration is, um, short.... Otherwise I'd call you and we'd discuss how to prove which line that is using a second tube.

My seven line tube is setting in a drawer at home. By the time the Jet lag wears off a bit, I might be able to look at the spectrum on Friday of next week. I can then take it cross town and see if I can beg access to a 1 meter spectrograph. If we had it here, I'd just match the line with the OPO I need to install after I put in the big green monster.

So the easiest way to get you thinking in 1 post is to provoke you.

It worked.

Steve

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:48 AM #20
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

I'm all for discussions. I don't think you have my number, you'll get a PM. Though if you don't get an answer, safe to say I am asleep.

Mind you it is 0345 here.

I can compare my 7 line to it, tomorrow I will fire them up and see if any Ar lines stick out in one and not the other. However I don't think it is something I can ... "eyeball". Highest marking on the side of the Verity is 761nm. Though the micrometer goes up to 800nm. Still not sure if that's enough to check for Ar. Which won't pick up the main 1090 Ar line, though I will see if there are any high relative brightness lines around 700-800 in the NIST.

I'm sorry, what were your intentions? If it was to provoke me, I am a bit in the dark.

Why would provocation be necessary if you only wanted to hear my side and get me to think? I haven't stopped thinking about this. Wish I could say I was kidding...The sleep loss is screaming at me to do otherwise...

Sean
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HeNe/gas reference thread
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:44 AM #21
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

Double post for science.

Possibility for your location based on flight patterns of the Washington Dulles International Airport.

HighQ Lasers in Austria, specializing in ultrafast pulsed lasers. Also can be far removed from ... civilization.

However, that being said, I searched a LOT of European flight schedules on IAD's website for the 18th. There were a few flights that were 13-14 hours long that went to Iceland. However, Iceland has a very small Jew population, and nothing to do with Nazi Germany.

The rest were 7-9hrs long. I am not sure if their website lists those 5hr delays in the "flight time" as in the time from getting on the plane, to arriving at your destination, or just time in the air. They were also just the non-stop flights... There's a good chance you got on a follow-on niche flight to the middle of nowhere.

I was not able to find any 16hr multi-stop flights to any of the European countries.
6765mil ring from Va for kicks. Assuming you flew for those 11hr, and you maintained 0.82mach.

I tried...
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405nm 500mW
442nm 15mW Melles Griot HeCd
445nm 1W
455nm 100mW LaserBTB
457nm Tunable OMNI 532
465nm Tunable OMNI 532
467nm 1.8W NDB7675
472nm Tunable Omni 532
473nm 2x 100mW Melles Griot lab heads w/ PSUs
476nm Tunable OMNI 532
488nm Single line 35mW
496nm Tunable OMNI 532
502nm Tunable OMNI 532
514nm Tunable OMNI 532
520nm 40mW MSV2
532nm Various pointers
543nm GreeNe 2mW
568nm ~20mW ArKr whitelight line
589nm 126mW PGL-III-C
594nm Rigel-6; 4.75mW + <1mW
604nm 2x <1mW multiline
609nm Ne Penning mixture Ar line from REO 612nm
612nm HeNe 1mW ML 4 line; Raman 6 line
629nm <1mW Raman 6 line
633nm 1-4mw red HeNe
635nm Raman 6 line
638nm 20mW single mode
640nm Raman 6 line
647nm ~10mW ArKr whitelight Kr line
650nm Raman 6 line
658nm LPC-826
685nm 20mW
808nm Modded NewWish pen


HeNe/gas reference thread
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:59 PM #22
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

One more set of clues, hour 15 minute dogleg at KopenHaven and country has 18 laser companies. 90% of population speaks 3 languages, 25% speak four. Extremely good education system.

Cool features of this nation's capital . There are few adverts on TV, I have not had to put up with Miley Cyrus/Kardashian/TZM type useless ***/cult of personality garbage in either the paper or TV. No one wears logos on their cloths or shoes, ie no nike/adidas/no hoodies. Please drss down to go to work and dress up to go for a walk. Its not "Verizon Stadium" or The Ford Truck Half Time show either. Very little commercialism, and the old town is a world heritage site. The new town however is very modern, but tasteful.


National sports are soccer, basketball, and some ice hockey. They love the NBA.

Women dress modestly here, no cleavage, but know how to be feminine. Dating is based on the fact that the beer is half bread, thus filling and waiters don't let you get sloshing drunk. There are no bars, everything is a restaurant on the high streets, and public transportation means few folks have or need cars. I just walked for two miles down the river in complete safety after 10 PM, unarmed. In a city this size in America, no way I'd do that when on the road.

So back to dating. Few clubs have dancing, you cant really get plastered. So women can approach you, and there is no blond in a bottle, short skirts, push up clevelage wars. They actually talk here, want to talk, and you don't need a "wingman" and a lot of money to find a date. If she likes you, all you need to say is "same time and place next week?" People spend hours out walking here in town on weeknights.

Concert tickets are about 20$, and lots of venues.

A single girl can walk home here, if someone threatened her, other guys would beat the *&^% out of him.

Fast food drive through windows are banned here, and McDonalds is highly regulated, If not looked down upon. In fact a meal takes 30 minutes to hour, no matter what.

Tea or coffee mostly, serious kinds of coffee, every office has a high grade espresso machine. I'm a tea drinker, and they usually have at least 10 kinds of tea. Little or No soda pop, which is considered a health hazard here.

No jetskis and private boats on the river, and no trash on the streets of the town center.

Its not a police state either. It took me hours to see a uniformed cop.

Strangely they hate to waste time with Facebook, use texting mostly for work, and prefer to talk in person. I like that.

Amazing.

So anyways, there are lines other then lasing lines in plasma. Your not looking for 1090, or ionized lines, your looking for a non lasing neutral line.
There are far, far more of them then lasing lines in the side glow. Neutral usually means no electron was stripped off, just pushed to a upper state and then radiative, or collisional decay.

Charlotte Emma Moore Sitterly was the editor, her Spectrum Line tables, are on line at a bunch of places, and cheap/ free as a government doc, and updated often. Nist is now the guardian, so

NIST Atomic Spectra Database

NIST: Atomic Spectra Database Lines Form

There are other tables, the US government does not do everything in this world, but they often help.

Often you if you find a unlisted line that lases, its been seen as a non-lasing line. In fact, without doing spectroscopic notation and calculating electron energy levels, the table method is the only way for you to identify the origin of a line. lasing Raman and Stokes/AntiStokes lines need to be calculated as sum and difference products from observed lines and electron energy levels, so since they only appear for the most part from laser lines, will not generally be in the tables.

Now, not all lines make it into a table, either. Especially ones that are from mixes of gasses.

Remember the glow discharge in a HENE will produce a few quite a ions, but is unlikely to produce a population inversion (lasing) of anything singly or doubly ionized, That is why we jump to an arc discharge with much higher current, resulting in ions dominating, instead of electron flow. HeCad for example is a glow on the edge of becoming an arc, and thus an exception.

What your seeing with the mystery is very unlikely to be a ion line. It will be a neutral or collision line.

That brings us to orbital notation and electron notation. If your not loosing a electron to become a ion, and are just changing energy states, this becomes useful:

http://www.google.lt/imgres?imgurl=h...ed=0CCkQ9QEwAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQy9qVgrm00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqWL0WMtlYk

Also the Ion notation is messed up, from our point of view. If I remember correctly The notation NE-I means neutral line, thus is not ionized. NEII is singly ionized. NEIII is doubly ionized and so forth.

Steve

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:57 PM #23
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

From Moore's tables, NISt on line.

604.2013 604.1988+ 150 152 970.7328 - 169 516.9948 2s22p5(2P1/2)3p 2[1/2] 0 2s22p5(2P3/2)5d 2[3/2] 1 L3469

Ne I 604.61348 604.6133+ 500 2.26e+05 B 150 121.5922 - 166 656.5114 2s22p5(2P3/2)3p 2[3/2] 1 2s22p5(2P1/2)5s 2[1/2] 1 T8043 L3451
Ne I 606.45359 606.4536+ 500 150 121.5922 - 166 606.3370 2s22p5(2P3/2)3p 2[3/2] 1 2s22p5(2P1/2)5s 2[1/2] 0 L3451
Ne I 607.43376 607.43377 10000 6.03e+07 C+ 134 459.2871 - 150 917.4307 2s22p5(2P3/2)3s 2[3/2] 1 2s22p5(2P3/2)3p 2[1/2] 0 T205n,T172 L7292
Ne I 609.61630 609.61631 3000 1.81e+07 C+ 134 459.2871 - 150 858.5079 2s22p5(2P3/2)3s 2[3/2] 1 2s22p5(2P1/2)3p 2[3/2] 2 T205n,T172 L7292
Ne II 611.088 611.08106 100 301 801.0594 - 318 160.9720 2s22p4(3P)4d 4D 7/2 2s22p4(3P2)6f 2[3] 7/2 L9088

Ne II 611.272 611.26489 160 301 801.0594 - 318 156.0520 2s22p4(3P)4d 4D 7/2 2s22p4(3P2)6f 2[4] 9/2 L9088
Ne I 611.80187 611.8014+ 150 6.09e+05 B 150 315.8612 - 166 656.5114 2s22p5(2P3/2)3p 2[3/2] 2 2s22p5(2P1/2)5s 2[1/2] 1 T8043 L4498
Ne I 612.84498 612.84499 1000 6.7e+05 B 134 459.2871 - 150 772.1118 2s22p5(2P3/2)3s 2[3/2] 1 2s22p5(2P1/2)3p 2[3/2] 1 T205n,T172 L3451
Ne II 613.277 613.27179 100 301 855.6707 - 318 157.1429 2s22p4(3P)4d 4D 5/2 2s22p4(3P2)6f 2[4] 7/2 L9088
Ne I 614.2508 614.2506+ 1000 150 772.1118 - 167 047.6082 2s22p5(2P1/2)3p 2[3/2] 1 2s22p5(2P3/2)4d 2[5/2] 2 L3469

Ne I 614.30627 614.30626 10000 2.82e+07 B 134 041.8400 - 150 315.8612 2s22p5(2P3/2)3s 2[3/2] 2 2s22p5(2P3/2)3p 2[3/2] 2 T205n,T172 L7292
Ne I 615.02985 615.0296+ 1000

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Old 11-24-2013, 12:22 AM #24
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

I knew KopenHaven had to be involved.

Based on your relatively "village-like" description, and the mentioning of a castle. You are in Helsingor (Elsinore). Home of the Kronborg castle.

Or you're just in Copenhagen itself, with the Rosenborg castle.

As far as the actual company you are with.. Well, this I do not know. There was a conference in '79 hosted in Elsinore covering low power laser assisted arc DMD, spot and joint welding, and a few other topics.

However that was over three decades ago, so who knows.

The only WL on that list that matters is the 609.6. The 607 is far to close to 612 to make any sense at all.

Thank you for the references.

I will be measuring distance from the output, to each particular wavelength, assuming the 611.8nm is correct, I will see how close I get on the others, and then measure the unknown.

If anyone feels like I have a bias, no need to worry. I will post all my work including pictures of setups, scrap paper, all of it for others to check, and carry out themselves.

I will also provide a picture of the spectrum itself for those who want to emulate the work Sam and I did calculating it based on numbers of pixels. I did this in Photoshop, but I am sure there are other software packages capable of the same job.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:42 AM #25
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

This just got intense
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~405 | ~445 | ~447 | 457.9 | 465.8 | 472.7 | 473 | 476.5 | 487.986 | 496.5 | 501.7 | 514.5 | 532 | 543.5 | 593.5 | 594.1 | 604.6 | 609.07 | 611.9 | 632.816 | ~635 | ~650 | ~660 | ~780 | ~808

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Old 11-24-2013, 12:52 AM #26
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwang21 View Post
This just got intense
Oh no, just some good debate. I'd rather this than just posting a bunch of information.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:59 PM #27
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

Here's how I do it, in case you weren't paying attention before:

Yes, that is a metric ruler stuck to the wall.
The farther from the wall the grating is, the more accurately the result can be measured.
HeNes are the perfect laser for this because they have a builtin calibration standard.
Plug the result into this.
[C] gridcalc.c - Pastebin.com
There are other tricks as well, but I'll let you figure them out, or else you can PM me for more details.

Since we're doing riddles, see if you can figure out what WL that is in the picture.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:43 PM #28
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

sounds like heaven steve! wish i were there. the city - not heaven just yet. really tho, what ever city you are in sounds like a place that would be good to live in.
to get back on topic.......thanks for all the good info.
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Old 11-26-2013, 01:44 AM #29
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

609 just came in! After many hours of waiting!

Here's my setup. This is only the first "round". A second one will be done later going across to my wall. I realized that the distance between the tube and the spectrum is not needed. I just need to get the ratio for the distance between the zero order, and the line in particular. I can do this with a ruler still.

Output goes from tube, into a bounce mirror, then to another mirror, to a focal length lens to make the spots smaller, then to the grating. After that, I marked the zero order and the 4 lines, on the ruler.

Though I won't have the decimal places needed from this setup, that won't come until I blow this up. Just doing a test of design. I've already got the final design in place, so will update with the math before the end of the night. Need to find a background movie for noise. Don't worry, the spots are marked on my wall, so I have all the time in the world




EDIT: The final design takes up about 8ft, so I will be using a string to measure mark the distances, and then measuring after. That way I don't have to worry about the 12in ruler getting messed up measurements from not being straight the whole time.

EDIT2: I attached a string between the zero order, and through the spectrum, and measured the distances in mm. Right now, in my sleepiness, I don't know what to do with these numbers. I'll reattack in the morning and see what I can come up with. I tried doing some basic mathematics looking for a ratio, couldn't.

Output to zero order (X)
Ya = 611.8 distance from zero
Yb = 609 " "
Yc = 604.6 " "
Yd = 593.9 " "

X = 3650mm
Ya = 1815mm
Yb = 1788mm
Yc = 1780mm
Yd = 1742mm



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442nm 15mW Melles Griot HeCd
445nm 1W
455nm 100mW LaserBTB
457nm Tunable OMNI 532
465nm Tunable OMNI 532
467nm 1.8W NDB7675
472nm Tunable Omni 532
473nm 2x 100mW Melles Griot lab heads w/ PSUs
476nm Tunable OMNI 532
488nm Single line 35mW
496nm Tunable OMNI 532
502nm Tunable OMNI 532
514nm Tunable OMNI 532
520nm 40mW MSV2
532nm Various pointers
543nm GreeNe 2mW
568nm ~20mW ArKr whitelight line
589nm 126mW PGL-III-C
594nm Rigel-6; 4.75mW + <1mW
604nm 2x <1mW multiline
609nm Ne Penning mixture Ar line from REO 612nm
612nm HeNe 1mW ML 4 line; Raman 6 line
629nm <1mW Raman 6 line
633nm 1-4mw red HeNe
635nm Raman 6 line
638nm 20mW single mode
640nm Raman 6 line
647nm ~10mW ArKr whitelight Kr line
650nm Raman 6 line
658nm LPC-826
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808nm Modded NewWish pen


HeNe/gas reference thread

Last edited by bloompyle; 11-26-2013 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 11-26-2013, 01:19 PM #30
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

From a post on the forums:
λ = dsin(arctan(S/L)),
where L is the distance from the grating to the wall, S is the distance between orders, d is the distance between the grating lines, and lambda is the wavelength. So you'll need to know precisely the distance from your grating, off your first mirror (and second mirror) to the wall.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:49 PM #31
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

Fortunately the grating is the final optical element. So tat will be east to calculate. However, I need to update the measurements. The 611.8nm distance in particular.

Here are the updated totals for distance between zero order, and wavelength, in mm.

Ya = 1797mm
Yb = 1788.5mm
Yc = 1775.5mm
Yd = 1743.5mm

With more space, I could expand these numbers. However, with this grating, there is already a large distance between the first order, and the zero order.

EDIT: Sam's unofficial results are below. I will be checking his work myself, and I invite all to do the same!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
OK, the approximate result is close:

594.1
604.746729
609.0719626
611.9
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405nm 500mW
442nm 15mW Melles Griot HeCd
445nm 1W
455nm 100mW LaserBTB
457nm Tunable OMNI 532
465nm Tunable OMNI 532
467nm 1.8W NDB7675
472nm Tunable Omni 532
473nm 2x 100mW Melles Griot lab heads w/ PSUs
476nm Tunable OMNI 532
488nm Single line 35mW
496nm Tunable OMNI 532
502nm Tunable OMNI 532
514nm Tunable OMNI 532
520nm 40mW MSV2
532nm Various pointers
543nm GreeNe 2mW
568nm ~20mW ArKr whitelight line
589nm 126mW PGL-III-C
594nm Rigel-6; 4.75mW + <1mW
604nm 2x <1mW multiline
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640nm Raman 6 line
647nm ~10mW ArKr whitelight Kr line
650nm Raman 6 line
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685nm 20mW
808nm Modded NewWish pen


HeNe/gas reference thread

Last edited by bloompyle; 11-26-2013 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:53 PM #32
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Default Re: TEA Cu vapor? 609.07nm? HeNeAr?

Remember, the diffraction pattern is angular, so it won't be linear along the wall unless the
wall is a semicircle with a radius of the distance to the grating.

String will stretch. Keep this in mind. I don't know how you're doing the measurements, but
keep in mind that if you remove the string from the wall, there is no way to get an accurate
measurement. This is why tape measures are not made out of string!

We need the distance between the grating and whatever the light is hitting, weather that be
the string or the wall, and it has to be fairly accurate. We also need to know the spacing of
the elements in your grating. I tried finding the distance assuming a 1000nm spacing, but
with 2 unknowns it is just impossible.

Gridcalc does all the math for you.
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