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Old 07-21-2010, 10:01 AM #161
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

LOL, no, basically your idea is right ..... it don't matter if the dot is 1mm on the first measure and 10mm on the second, as far as the 10mm one cover entirely the reading area ..... the transferred power is always the same ..... and as far as i know, there are no "special secrets" .....

The only differences can be:

If you are measuring a very low powered laser, the beam too much large can not transfer power efficently enough, so, for lasers like 10 or 15mW, a beam of 4 or 5 mm can be the better ..... for high power lasers, as i said, is matter of not ruin the reading surface, so keep them never focused on the reading element, always keep them covering 50 to 70% of the reading area ..... and with thermopiles, keep the beam more centered as possible, regardless the diameter, cause if you make a measure with the beam of 1mm diameter on the border, and a second measure with the beam of 10mm diameter in the center, you get two different values .....


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Old 07-25-2010, 09:59 PM #162
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Here you go Guys Its pretty much complete except for painting the top of the meter, Getting and putting in the Digital Blue LCD Volt Panel Meter, putting in the panels from the inside of the meter to cover up the holes in the front and back(I have them cut already just waiting to finish painting I might decide to put mesh instead not sure) and a few touch up here and there

The heatsink is a 35.00mm x 35.00mm with a 15mm TEC. The Connect that i used to connect the heatsink/TEC to the LPM was salvaged out of the cable box It is easy to connect and disconnect for easy storage and just in case it gets pulled it wont destroy the board it will just pop out of the socket.. The power button is in the back left conner and the adjustment nob is in the right center.

The empty square on the left will fit the LCD volt panel and the holes on the right are just for decorations. The holes on the back will also be for decoration. Theres not much i can do with the holes but just put a panel in the back of them so you cant see inside the LPM. I think it looks pretty cool From what it Use to be an OLD CABLE BOX...

Hope you guys like and heres the PIC'S!!!





So once i finish painting it i will post the final results. .

I will also put on the case the name of the meter i will call it the:

M-Master Series

Thanks again for this DIY "MM" and thanks everyone for the help in this build. Gratefully Appreciate it.

EDIT: JUST GOT MY DIGITAL METER TODAY

Here it is complete:

How do you guys like it?
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:54 AM #163
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

^^^
Looks great man! Good job!

I've been lagging it a bit with this project but as of today I've ordered all the needed parts. So I should have mine done soon.

-Tony
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:11 PM #164
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplorer877 View Post
^^^
Looks great man! Good job!

I've been lagging it a bit with this project but as of today I've ordered all the needed parts. So I should have mine done soon.

-Tony
Hey Buddy, i am glad you like it. When you finish Yours Post some Pictures i would like to see how it turns out.
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:14 AM #165
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

I got TEC today but I'm still waiting on a few things.

BTY, the TEC has a HOT side and a COLD side when it's powered. Normally the HOT side will be heatsinked when it's used for cooling. But in this case we're essentially using it backwards. So the COLD side will get adhered to the heatsink correct? Then the laser heats the HOT side?

-Tony
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:20 AM #166
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplorer877 View Post
I got TEC today but I'm still waiting on a few things.

BTY, the TEC has a HOT side and a COLD side when it's powered. Normally the HOT side will be heatsinked when it's used for cooling. But in this case we're essentially using it backwards. So the COLD side will get adhered to the heatsink correct? Then the laser heats the HOT side?

-Tony
It won't matter which side you use, depending on which side you heat, the polarity of the output signal might be reversed but you can just swap the wires.

If you want to be sure, just put the tec on a heatsink and apply heat with your finger and check the polarity of the output with a DMM.
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:49 AM #167
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarioMaster View Post
It won't matter which side you use, depending on which side you heat, the polarity of the output signal might be reversed but you can just swap the wires.

If you want to be sure, just put the tec on a heatsink and apply heat with your finger and check the polarity of the output with a DMM.
K I checked it with my DDM.

I was right. The cold side should be attached to the heatsink, and the hot side will be stimulated by the laser. At least that way the polarity will match the red and black wires from the TEC. I'm getting about +20mV with my finger on the hot side, and a couple of mV with a 5mW red laser. That's pretty good considering it's not yet amplified. It should be pretty accurate.

-Tony
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Old 08-05-2010, 05:06 AM #168
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

For those interested here is a layout done with ExpressPCB:



ExpressPCB File:
LPMAmp.zip
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:25 AM #169
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Here is my sensor module completed, although I haven't painted the TEC yet. Needless to say, Ehgemus never ceases to impress. I had this over-sized heatsink made for two reasons. First it keeps the cold side of the TEC rock steady, and secondly it acts as a weight to keep my sensor from moving around. I like meters that have a heavy external sensor, it makes measuring a bit more convenient. I used Arctic Silver thermal adhesive to adhere the TEC to the heatsink and I'm getting over 40mV with my finger toughing it, before amplification. This TEC has many super tiny junctions. It should work very well.



-Tony
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:48 AM #170
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Nice Job on the sensor module. I like how you put the wires through the heatsink and the connector out of the back.

I ordered another TEC a couple of days ago the 8x8mm one + another heatsink, to see witch one i like better between the one that i have now and the new 8x8mm one.

The one i have now works well but at lower power lasers it takes a little longer to get to the mW of the laser. So i figured this smaller TEC wont take as long.

The one i have now is:
Digi-Key - 102-1672-ND (Manufacturer - CP60133)

The new one i ordered:
03111-9J30-20CA
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:18 PM #171
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Quote:
Originally Posted by HIMNL9 View Post
Ehm ..... not totally right, sorry .....

First consideration to do: the reading surface of a thermal sensor is NOT resistant to anything, to infinite abuses ..... one thing is using a 200W thermal head with ceramic plate, another is using a 2W reading head with special ultra-thin plate ..... using an 1W FOCUSED to a burning point on one of the sensitive (and delicate) low-power high-resolution plates, can easily end in damaging the surface of it, that, considering the usual cost of thermopiles, is not exactly a funny thing .....

The same thing is more valid for TEC sensors, that have a coating made with paint, usually ..... regardless the quality of the paint, and the presence of the ceramic substrate for draw the heat, it can be damaged also more easily from a focused beam with burning ability (i made the same with one of my tests, too, thinking the paint was good ..... it was "high temperature paint for exhaust tubes" for motorcycles, and they reach a high temperature, so i thoughd it was resistant to burning lasers too, but i burned it on the TEC surface with only 200mW of 405nm, focused for burn, so, just imagine) .....

The first "good" rule, then, is: always try to defocus the beam a bit, when you read a laser ..... if you have a small reading surface thermopile, like the ophir ones sold with some LPM also here, or a small TEC sensor, like the lasersbee one, is always a good thing to defocus the beam to AT LEAST half the diameter of the sensor, also more, if the laser is hold with a stand ..... this prevent unwanted plate / coating damages

Second consideration to do: there is a phisical difference from a thermopile and a TEC cell, that gives you different results in heat distribution and heat draining from the measuring area, so the point where you target the reading area IS important for a correct reading, other than the reading time .....

In more clear words: the TEC cell have the plates made in ceramic (ok, ok, a special ceramic, but i suppose you don't need the formula ), that is more thick and highly thermally conductive, much more than the thermopile reading plate ..... also, the cells are distributed on all the back surface of the plate ..... from the counterpart, the structure of a TEC cell, also if not used for cooling, is much, much more heat transfering than a thermopile reading plate ..... this made it relatively insensitive about the exact point where you shine your laser, cause all the heat transfered to the plate from the laser, is spreaded really quickly on all the surface, and influence in almost equal mode all the cells (except than shining it on a corner, but also this is someway compensated) ..... so, almost regardless than the fact that you shine the laser exactly on the center or not, the reading is practically the same (some minimal differences are always presents, but are so small that does not influence the reading in a really effective way) ..... at the same point, anyway, the more quick transfer of heat from the reading plate to the "cold" plate, due to the big mass of the junctions, tends to "equalize" slowly the temperatures, falsing the reading in long-cycles readings ..... anyway, this does not have a big influence reading low-powered lasers, only reading high-powered ones, indicatively from over 500mW and up ..... this can be, anyway, minimized using a big or very efficent heatsink on the "cold" plate (a thermal compensation can be helpful, too, for long readings, but is not indispensable at hobby level)

On the other side, a thermopile have a totally different structure, especially the sensitive ones that are able to read very few milliwatts ..... builders had to become to a compromise from sensitivity and dimensions, and this means that the reading plate is, sometimes, extremely thin and delicate, made from special materials for maximize the heat transfer speed and at the same time kept small enough for become influenced from very low powers ..... but, you know, infinites does not exists ..... regardlass from what material you use, there's no materials that have an infinite heat transfer speed ..... and also, for the constructive principle of those sensors, the reading elements are a lot of bimetal thermopiles made with very thin metal plates, connected in serie for increase the reading, and placed all around the circumference of the plate .....

This cause a difference in the reading for different zones of the reading surface ..... cause the heat transfer from one place to the whole plate is not infinite, the thermal resistance of the plate itself, causes a higher reading when you shine the beam on the borders of the plate, where the bimetal junctions are directly posed, and a minor (but more correct) reading, when the beam is shined exactly on the center of the plate, cause in this way the reading is the effective power reading of all the heat, equally transferred to all the bimetal junctions (yes, is not that your laser is more powerful if you shine it on the borders, you are simply doing the reading in the wrong way, doing this )

So, for a correct use of a thermopile, is required, usually, that the beam is defocused at least on half of the reading surface, and that it will be directed and kept more centrally possible on the reading plate.

And as final consideration, regardless if you are using a thermopile or a TEC or a piezothermic element, all these elements, more or less, are sensitives also to thermal radiating power (purely heat) generated from the measured devices ..... so, for a real power reading, is not enough to correctly "zero set" the meter and shine the laser on it ..... the better and more precise reading is obtained following some simples, but indispensables, rules:

1) no air currents around the sensor (it can draw heat from the hot or the cold face, falsing the reading).

2) never keep the sensor with the hands (the heat added from the hands, slowly change the difference of the temperatures from the two faces, making the reading imprecise and incostant).

3) no big lamps or heating elements around the sensor (not too good making a reading, having a 100W halogen lamp half meter from the sensor, or similar )

4) NEVER keep the lasers close or touching the reading assembly (the heat from the laser body can false your readings, also 40 / 50% sometimes ..... i always laughed seeing sellers that shows on their sites 400 or 500 mW green lasers, and "proof" the output power showing a pic where the power is read keeping the laser in contact with the reading head ..... i can bet whatever you want that, in these cases, at least 40%, if not more, than the readed power, is infrareds AND heat from the laser body ) ..... a decently precise reading can be obtained keeping the laser AT LEAST 20cm away from the reading head ..... also the double, if possible, is also better

5) ofcourse, frequently check the zero set of the meter ..... thermal derive, thermal transfers from the sides, changes in temperature of the ambient, also just the radiant heat added to the items from the body of the reader, in extreme cases, always changes the thermal model scheme of the ambient and reading setup ..... if you have the patience, and really want that your measure is the more correct possible, check the zero set after each measure, and if the time is not a problem, do at least 3 measures for each laser you're measuring, and made a medium value from the 3 measures (i know, this is almost a lab procedure, but, it's the more correct possible, for hobby level ..... we don't have NIST labs in the pocket or in a desk tire, after all, so we must do that what we can, with that what we have ..... )

(sorry for the long post )
Excellent explanation of the heat transfer and active surface area
differences between Radial type Thermopile like the OPHIR 20C-A

Thermopile Heads and the Wafer type Thermopile like we use on the
LaserBee products..


@ lazeerer and Xplorer887.... good job on your Heads...
Any test results yet...


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Old 08-08-2010, 06:26 PM #172
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
Excellent explanation of the heat transfer and active surface area
differences between Radial type Thermopile like the OPHIR 20C-A

Thermopile Heads and the Wafer type Thermopile like we use on the
LaserBee products..


@ lazeerer and Xplorer887.... good job on your Heads...
Any test results yet...



Jerry
ThanksMeans alot coming from some one that makes meters at the level you do., Ive played around with the LPM but not really tested yet because i need to fully calibrate it.

Also I will come pair the 2 different TEC's when the new one comes in. I put together a much cleaner board then my first attempt.

The Tec Right now that iam using it works awesome when reading my 445nm 1amp. laser and reads quickly but with my over spec'd 5mW green laser it takes a little time for it to read the output of the laser. So i figured with the smaller TEC and i believe more junction i will get a faster reading.

So when i get the new TEC i will test both of the TEC's. I have sent 1 laser to 2 different member here that have accurate meters. it is on the second member right now So i figured that should be enough accuracy to calibrate my LPM.

Here is a short video showing it working very good:"Just click the image"
It is not calibrated so it is way off it will be calibrated as soon as i receive my laser back and i will post some more videos also with the new TEC.


Hope you guys like.
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Old 08-08-2010, 06:54 PM #173
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazeerer View Post
ThanksMeans alot coming from some one that makes meters at the level you do., Ive played around with the LPM but not really tested yet because i need to fully calibrate it.

Also I will come pair the 2 different TEC's when the new one comes in. I put together a much cleaner board then my first attempt.

The Tec Right now that iam using it works awesome when reading my 445nm 1amp. laser and reads quickly but with my over spec'd 5mW green laser it takes a little time for it to read the output of the laser. So i figured with the smaller TEC and i believe more junction i will get a faster reading.

So when i get the new TEC i will test both of the TEC's. I have sent 1 laser to 2 different member here that have accurate meters. it is on the second member right now So i figured that should be enough accuracy to calibrate my LPM.

Here is a short video showing it working very good:"Just click the image"
It is not calibrated so it is way off it will be calibrated as soon as i receive my laser back and i will post some more videos also with the new TEC.

Hope you guys like.
Nice Video....
Try taking that reading again and when it shows 710mV on the display...
adjust the gain pot on the amplifier to 1,000mV or whatever your 445nm
Laser builder said it was set to. (don't know who built your 1 Watt Laser)
I'm assuming the laser outputs 1000mW...

Then see if the display drops to zero without a Laser on your sensor.
(You may need to readjust the Zero again)
That should roughly calibrate it to your 1 Watt Laser...


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Old 08-08-2010, 07:32 PM #174
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Yep, Thats exactly how MM told me how to do it. The only thing is i cant do it right now because i have the board Double sided taped to the body and i dont have any more to replace it also i cant adjust the pot unless i peel the board off completely because the double side tape is in the way .

"The board is double sided taped to the top of the body where you can see the zeroing turning nob in the center of the meter. That was the only way i could secure it and still be able to use the zeroing nob."

But i will do exactly what you guys said when i get my laser and get more tape.

Edit: I built the laser but ordered the host and heatsink from Jay.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:03 PM #175
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Im getting some prototype PCBs made. The board is only 1" x 0.5" so it will fit in the slot of a TO-220 extruded heatsink. They should arrive in a couple of weeks.

Top Layer:


Bottom Layer:


Heatsink:
Mouser Link

TEC I'll be using:
TEC Link
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:21 PM #176
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Default Re: DIY Thermal LPM for under $50

Quote:
Originally Posted by jib77 View Post
Im getting some prototype PCBs made. The board is only 1" x 0.5" so it will fit in the slot of a TO-220 extruded heatsink. They should arrive in a couple of weeks.

Top Layer:


Bottom Layer:


Heatsink:
Mouser Link

TEC I'll be using:
TEC Link
Nice small PCB.... But are those 10 turn pots or 1 Turn pots...


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