I have started a new business called Survival Laser, Inc. Survival Laser is selling 1.1W 445nm focusable laser parts bundles, laser parts and laser accessories. We have a webstore operational at www.survivallaser.com.



Right now there are two variations of the laser parts bundle, one with rechargeable batteries and a charger, and one with disposable batteries and no charger. The rechargeable package includes the 1,100 mW 445nm laser parts bundle, a lens cap, 2 rechargeable RCR123A batteries, a battery charger, a pair of laser safety goggles, a holster and complete illustrated instructions and safety precautions. The heat sink is aluminum and is blue anodized. The Survival Laser logo and other information is laser etched onto the sides of the host. Both bundles include all parts necessary to construct and operate the laser safely and can be assembled in 5-10 minutes with no soldering or special mechanical skills required. The only tool necessary is an Allen wrench which is included with the package. You can preview the parts bundle instructions and a number of other documents including recommended safety precautions on the Survival Laser home page.



The diode modules and driver assemblies are 100% tested and will output 1,100mW +/- 100mW with fully charged batteries. Recommended duty cycle is 1 minute on, 1 minute off.



On the "Laser Parts" page is a complete host assembly for 1-1.2 watt 445nm handheld lasers. It includes an Aurora C6 laser body (retaining ring, heat sink holder, battery holder and tailcap switch), a 1.25A diode driver soldered and preinstalled in the "pill", an unanodized aluminum heat sink with set screw, a 0.050" Allen wrench and a lens cap. The battery holder will be either generic or not laser etched. The customer will add their own 445nm diode, AixiZ diode module and 445nm glass lens. The completed laser uses two rechargeable RCR123A or disposable CR123A batteries. Each assembly is tested with the recommended batteries, lens and diode before shipment. Laser output with an A130 or A140 diode and 445nm AR coated glass lens will be 1,100mW +/- 100mW. The driver circuit is a current regulated buck driver which consistently outputs 1.20-1.25A. They are listed for $56 on the Survival Laser website but I also offer special pricing to LPF members. A customer should be able to produce a complete 1.1 watt 445nm laser for around $110 using this assembly.



On the "Laser Accessories" page we offer 445nm laser safety goggles, rechargeable and disposable batteries, a charger and a holster.



We also have a Facebook page at www.facebook.com/pages/Survival-Laser/174943532519164. A customer recently posted a nice review of the Survival Laser parts bundle on the Discussion Board.



We plan to run specials from time to time for LPF members as we are currently doing with the 445nm laser host assembly.

All products are currently in stock. Shipment via First Class or Priority Mail is normally within 24 hours or the next business day.

The Survival Laser email address is sales at survivallaser dot com.

Please let me know if there are any other products you would like to see offered or if you have any suggestions, comments or questions. I look forward to serving you!

Gary

You're going to get skewered by the FDA. Just saying.

Just ask Mohrenberg.

-Trevor

Can you post a video of its burning capabilities?

Not to mention, PayPal does not take lightly USA sellers violating it's terms of service (AUP) by selling >5mw lasers or kits (both are the same in legal terms) and they will close their PP account in no time and keep the funds that are in the account for 180 days before banning them from PP for life.

Policy statements are not law neither are they regulation. They are an agency's way of avoiding notice-and-comment rulemaking which IS required by law.

Been there, done that. I fought the DOT and helped with a 10-year lawsuit against the ATF over very similar matters and won both times. It all depends on how far you want to go.

This group should start fighting for their rights or there won't be any rights left. Just sayin'.

I believe there is a video on the Facebook page. It is of 1W lasers in general and there is one shot of the Spartan burning a CD case, but the other burning shots are using the Survival Laser.

Please pardon my asking this if it's been covered several times before, but I thought someone selling 'complete' lasers would ruffle the FDA's fragile feathers - not kits without diodes.....

I think I need to ask Mo what happened because I thought someone selling kits wouldn't be an issue (?) I'm a bit surprised to see your reaction Trevor

What concerns me is that they're being sold through a separate storefront other than LPF - this is what Moh was doing. If a federal-type stumbled on that and read it, it's a very easily assembled kit to make a very, very noncompliant device - and could likely be interpreted as the regulatory bypass that it is.

I just don't want to see history repeated.

Sidenote: If you want to keep discussing why this concerns me, you might want to PM me - that way this thread won't get cluttered and I won't look like a tool.

-Trevor

Nice one.



I also find it completely hypocritical that many here turn a blind eye to the fact that seemingly half the members on this forum (a personal estimate only) are selling complete Class IV and other lasers through PayPal that are clearly in violation of FDA regs and (presumably) PayPal's terms of use.

If you sell a laser, either as an individual or as a "business", that's commerce.

Concerning that email, I wouldn't be too concerned - at least based on how it's written.

I know it seems weird, but all we have to go on is history; Mohrenberg had a website selling complete lasers and you've got a website selling very-easily-completed lasers.

I just told you that in the interest of full disclosure. You don't need to stop, or even listen to me. It wouldn't be the first time; just look back to the Arctic fiasco and you'd find that my FDA contacts know what's up - but no one listened.

Good luck and stay out of trouble.

-Trevor

I will PM you Trev, I want to learn more about 'why' and 'why not' that I don't already know & to help with my confusion... and I don't want you to look like a tool (heh). Thanks for the 411. Household priorities first though, I wont have free time again until later on today

My immediate reaction to the response from this new company announcement however, is frustrating. Why must it be this difficult to do something that survival lasers is doing? I loved seeing the offer they've launched & now it's all under scrutiny & doubt :/

((this goes again with the fact that SL is not selling complete lasers here - - the main concern as I understand it))

Hi Garoq,
I posted in this thread only to let you know about PayPal becuase our account was locked with over 2k in funds in it over a year ago and they kept it for 180 days before releasing it and banning us.
Funny thing was, we had not had a link to PP on our website for over a year before that as we had gotten our own real merchant account in mid 2008. I had just transferred the 2k into my PP account a few days before the lockout as I was going to use the funds for all my Christmas shopping as I was getting a 1.5% discount on everything purchased using a PP debit card. It was as if they were just waiting for funds to go into the account to lock them up.
It left a very foul taste in my mouth for PP and I didn't want it to happen to anyone else.
With them, their is no appeal or even a way for them to listen, they make a decision and that's that. They are not a bank and do not have to follow normal banking rules.
Sure you could get a lawyer to go after PP to get your money back, but that'll cost you and it would probably be dragged out to nearly 6 months anyway.
Yes, there are alot of members who use PP as well as many from China, they popup faster than PP can lock them out; however it seems they find USA PP sellers as easy prey, especially if they have a website.
Since it looks like someone is ratting you out, I would transfer any funds in your PP account to your regular bank account at the end of each day, so at the most you will only lose 1 day worth of funds.

We do not sell the 445nm 1Watt pointers so we are not competitors, so I wish you the best of luck in your business, I just didn't want PP to get you too as I've got a grudge against PP.

Good Luck, happy holidays and avoid PP

I'm paraphasing a bit of history as I researched it and forgive me if I got something wrong...Mohrenberg was selling complete lasers on his website. He received a threatening letter from the FDA. Someone asked if he could sell kits instead, but then another member posted a "policy statement" from the FDA from 1976 that said that kits were regulated as well.

It all boils down to the interpretation of a number of words in the regulations:

Definition of "kit" or "kits" (not defined)
Definition of "device" (not defined)
Definition of "laser product"
Definition of "laser"

I have a letter in my possession from another federal agency that includes a definition for "device", and a "kit" is clearly not a "device".

I'm affirming that policy statements are not regulation or law. However it might be best to avoid using the "trigger words" in this situation. Also it might be preferrable to sell the module separately from the rest of the parts like Jasperlaser does.

Thanks everyone for the heads up. I think it is good to foster some discussion on this issue. From my limited time on this forum it seems to me that there is a lot of fear and misunderstanding about the relevant federal agencies and what they can and cannot do. As someone who has "worked" with them most of my career, I bring a little different experience to the mix. However, I definitely don't want to encourage another entanglement with them even if I'm right, as it would be completely non-productive.

What sparked the $50 price increase on the kits?

What part of Southern Utah are you in?
And do you have a brick & mortar store?

I'm in Vegas and I go up to St.George once a month, if your close, I would like to buy some goods.

With respect, have you contacted Jayrob about this kit and discussed it with him? It's usually considered polite on LPF to check between sellers that no-one is stepping on their ground.

This kit looks like a straight copy to me?

If you have spoken to Jay then great but you might want to tell us this to reduce friction. Of course, anyone is free to sell anything they like but I wouldn't be happy to have my designs used without at least being informed. Just sayin'...



From a safety point of view, I would have expected laser glasses for this class of laser to be much better than a $15 pair looking similar to the non-effective pairs sold by the likes of cheap Chinese companies I could mention. I see no specifics as to protection factors or standards there. As you asked for suggestions on products then I say: 'Proper', eye protection; not just the cheapest you can find.

M

The initial prices on the parts bundles were "introductory" prices as we are in the process of establishing dealers. Making product available to dealers requires a higher retail price. I have spoken to a dealer and I have an agreement to offer the parts bundles at a discount to LPF members.

I will also honor a discount on the laser parts to LPF members. Just PM me with the order before paying. Accessory prices will remain as-is for now, though I may need to adjust the retail price if the dealers decide to pick them up as well.

I will update my post on the BST thread with this info.

Cedar City. The address is listed on the website, and we have an office that is shared with my other business. You are welcome to stop by, just let me know what you would like to pick up and I will have it ready for you when you arrive.

Morgan,

I contacted Jayrob and Yobresal before announcing the SL products. Both use the same host btw, though Yob's is unmarked. Jay also makes kits for quite a few other hosts.

IMHO the use of an "off-the-shelf" component in a competitive product is fair game. This host is available from numerous distributors. We chose to source them directly from the manufacturer without logos for the Survival Laser parts bundles. I also have a small quantity that I purchased from a distributor assuming that they would be shipped without the logo but they were not. Those are being used in the limited quantity of $50 host assemblies. If we choose to continue selling the DIY assemblies they will likely use unmarked hosts.

Jay's EZ-Focus adapter, OTOH, is apparently his design. If we ever do something like that it will look different. However, unless you own a patent, there is no protection for a product design. I own six patents which cover various aspects of our rocket motor and kit designs. Everything else is fair game.

Besides all that, the kits are quite different in a number of areas. If you look closely at the specs you will see that.

With regard to the laser safety goggles we are selling, a better question might have been "What is the OD of your goggles?" rather than cast judgment based on their outward appearance. I use them personally and so does my wife. I would never sell a product that I was not willing to use myself. Also, I have tested them with my LBII LPM and found that the level of radiation passing through them from a 1W 445nm is below the resolution of the meter. So the OD of the goggles is at least 3 based on this test. If you like I can post some photos. The only problem was that after a few seconds the goggle lens plastic was beginning to melt.

Yeah because everyone carries around some rocket propellant.

Good one.

What's strange in this ? ..... i usually carry around a lot of chemicals (most of the times, just cause i forgot them in the pockets of my coat ), and some of them are more "sensitive", or dangerous, than rocket fuel compounds, sometimes .....

Gotta love the blue anodized heatsink

I'm glad you contacted them. Not sure how happy they would've been but this was the right thing to do. I'm sure Yobresal and Jayrob will have agreed they would sell the same host though and didn't just do it regardless.

Hmmm, I'm not so certain on this and although I agree in principle that off the shelf items may be considered, "Fair Game", in a true business sense, this isn't the same scenario so we'll have to disagree on this occasion. I think this is profiting off the back of others or you would have found a different host. You saw a good kit, and copied it. Using different batteries and perhaps a different driver doesn't change that. I'm afraid you should expect someone to point this out.

I did refer to the specs of these goggles if you look at the quote below. The problem is, is that OD is just one of the measurements that refer to the quality and protection factors. These goggles are not suitable for this laser and you have demonstrated that because they start melting after a few seconds. Although that fact alone doesn't necessarily prove they are sub standard there is no gaurantee that the ones you have, and ones someone else gets, offer the same protection levels either. To know this for sure they must have a compliance indicator.

I'm sure you know this but in the US they must comply to ANSI Z136, (other standards apply elsewhere). This should be shown on each pair of goggles to comply. If they don't have that number, they don't comply. Do they have one?

What you, and your wife, choose to use is fine but that doesn't prove anything. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. You may feel safe to use them but that doesn't mean it is safe.

Selling goggles like this without explanations of these things leaves you open to even more problems with the authorities I think. Not to mention possible action from someone who injures themselves whilst using them.

We could argue the point on whether FDA infringements are serious or not but eye safety definitely is serious. Please don't kid yourself, or your customers, that you are offering adequate protection unless you can prove it. If you can prove it then please include it on your site and any sales material, (i.e. this thread).


I'm not trying to come across aggressively but these things need to be said I feel. Good luck with your sales.

M