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Old 11-26-2011, 07:18 PM #225
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Default Re: 470nm diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennett326 View Post
EDIT i think people said Cr@pi0 because of how much sh!t they where giving the forum not the diodes are crap that the legal crap is crap IDK LOL
They *have* to give that 'crap', to protect themselves as a company. Without due diligence, they could be liable. They can't just say "Hey guys, yeah, go at it, blow your eyeballs out!". So it really is understandable as to why they took some action.

They could have taken a lot more. By the time wavelengths for the blues do get up into the 470s, maybe they will.

They aren't just doing it because they're trying to stop us from having fun. They're trying to protect themselves from overly litigious people (moms and dads, even) who decide to cash in when little Johnny bores a hole in his retina. NOT potting the diodes could be seen as negligent. So they want to avoid that before it even becomes an issue.

Anarchy may be a hell of a party, but it doesn't work in the long run.


As far as the diodes go: I gotta say I'm really tired of the lines that chinese sources always feed us, to the point where I don't think I'm even going to consider their specs in dealing with them going forward. I'm not sure if this guy tried to mislead Ablaze, or just had no clue what he was talking about. It really could be either. My cynicism has me leaning towards the former.


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Old 11-26-2011, 07:38 PM #226
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Default Re: 470nm diode

Yeah, and have you seen China's carbon footprint lately? It's now well over that of the US. Experts say that, due mainly to China, global warming trends have surpassed the worst case scenarios of the late 90's.

Anyway, I am trying to compose an email to my Chinese contact now. Unfortunately, I don't think scathing criticisms would be very effective. He just wouldn't understand the vocabulary.
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Old 11-26-2011, 07:40 PM #227
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Default Re: 470nm diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by aryntha View Post
NOT potting the diodes could be seen as negligent.
I'm sure this manufacturer is likely quite aware of just what percentage of sales of these projectors has been due to people harvesting diodes.. And i'm fairly certain, with all the chinese laser sellers etc.. that that percentage is high enough that it would mean a large chunk of change if it vanished. I think that's likely the only reason we haven't seen the diode blocks being potted yet.. However if lawsuits start happening.. 'the manufacturer' could quickly decide the additional sales weren't worth the legal threat and make it a LOT harder to extract the diodes.

I'm saying there is zero benefit in us badmouthing a source of diodes in any way.. for any reason. the restrictions placed on us are in no way horrible.


And Ablaze.. Just be to the point. Tell them it's neither 470nm, or a TO18 package diode and suggest that they reexamine their datasheets or contact their own suppliers about these matters.

If these are people you deal with regularly, there's no point in pissing them off unless you just want to end the relationship
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Old 11-26-2011, 07:56 PM #228
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Default Re: 470nm diode

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Originally Posted by qumefox View Post
I'm saying there is zero benefit in us badmouthing a source of diodes in any way.. for any reason. the restrictions placed on us are in no way horrible.


And Ablaze.. Just be to the point. Tell them it's neither 470nm, or a TO18 package diode and suggest that they reexamine their datasheets or contact their own suppliers about these matters.

If these are people you deal with regularly, there's no point in pissing them off unless you just want to end the relationship
I agree 100%... the "company" has not inflicted any pain on us
directly and they should be thanked for designing a product that
we could easily harvest some internal components at a great per
unit price.

@Ablaze...
letting your supplier know that you are a technically informed
buyer (by informing them of their incorrect data) will let them
know that any future false claims from them would easily be
intercepted...


Jerry
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Old 11-26-2011, 08:00 PM #229
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Default Re: 470nm diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by aryntha View Post
As far as the diodes go: I gotta say I'm really tired of the lines that chinese sources always feed us, to the point where I don't think I'm even going to consider their specs in dealing with them going forward. I'm not sure if this guy tried to mislead Ablaze, or just had no clue what he was talking about. It really could be either. My cynicism has me leaning towards the former.
I'm actually more inclined to lean towards that latter, or at least a combination of both.

This source clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Forget about the wavelength issue for a moment. This source's lack of knowledge is evidenced by the 5.6mm vs 3.8mm confusion. There's no "value" to falsely claiming the diode was 5.6mm, if he knew it was actually 3.8mm. Thus, he must not have known it was 3.8mm. He couldn't have "not known" this, if he had manufactured the diode, or even just the housing itself - hell, if he had even LOOKED AT the laser module itself, before selling it, he would have known it contained a 3.8mm diode. I maintain that this "source" is basically a dumb intermediary, who knows nothing about lasers (or any more than they'd know about MP3 players, generic Android phones, fake iPhones, etc), reselling someone else's product, at inflated prices. He's taking generic modules (I'm pretty sure from BobLaser) and reselling them to ABlaze at a markup, claiming them to be "custom made" etc etc etc.

Remember this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ablaze View Post
This diode is in active R&D. I believe they are being made to order from scratch, and not using another company's premade diodes.
That's just complete nonsense. And ABlaze, to be clear, I'm not ragging on you about this - I'm ragging on your "source". I'm certain you had good intentions, and fully believed this statement above, because of what this source told you. That said, I think you need to recognize that this source is deceiving you. This has been what I've been trying to help you see from the beginning. He's majorly overcharging you on the other lasers you've purchased from him (based on the private cost sheet you showed me), and he's not giving you product that would be any different than what you might get if you approached BobLaser or someone similar directly.

Aryntha touched on the whole "tired of the lines Chinese sources feed us" sentiment - and I share that too. Once you've dealt with enough Chinese laser sources, you'll realize that the "relationship" you think you have with them, is largely smoke and mirrors. They'll tell you almost anything they need to tell you to get that next sale. There is often a mindset that getting the money now, and worrying about satisfaction later, is the right approach to business.

It probably works for them too -

Most of the time, getting a refund or an exchange is impractical. They'll either offer you some token amount of compensation (maybe 5%), or setup some absurd exchange/return scheme that makes it effectively impractical to do so. It's a bit different for an established domain like DX or DD, where complaints can attach to the website name or address, and reasonably easily impact future sales. But look at this situation here - even after all of this, you still won't tell us who your source is, so that we know not to do business with them in the future. I'd say that's a pretty repercussion-free relationship for your source. Apart from potentially jeopardizing your future business, this source has so far had zero impact on their own reputation as a result of their deception.

So maybe the Chinese laser sources are smart
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Old 11-26-2011, 08:24 PM #230
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Default Re: 470nm diode

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Originally Posted by rhd View Post
He's majorly overcharging you on the other lasers you've purchased from him (based on the private cost sheet you showed me), and he's not giving you product that would be any different than what you might get if you approached BobLaser or someone similar directly.
You make some very good points in your post. I still disagree with you here though. Bob charges more than Carrie for the same units, so maybe it's Bob that is reselling Carrie's crap.. or maybe Carrie has a better line on the parts than Bob. The funny thing is that when I do a search for Carrie's website it doesn't even come up on Google. I think that no one has ever posted their url anywhere on the interwebs.

The thing is, both Bob and Carrie are wholesalers. I have delt with many wholesalers in the past (and I'm talking about ones in the same town as me) and just about every one of them has terrible customer service.. sure you may get a can of soda for 20% less from them but you'll get fucked in the end by all this same sort of shit.

A retail site will always be a better bet if you're looking for one or two of anything, whether it is from China or across the street.
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Old 11-26-2011, 08:45 PM #231
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Default Re: 470nm diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
@Ablaze...
letting your supplier know that you are a technically informed
buyer (by informing them of their incorrect data) will let them
know that any future false claims from them would easily be
intercepted...
I wish that worked with the Chinese sources, Jerry.. I've tried the "I have a LPM and a spectrometer, and I know how to use it, so don't snow me" approach with chinese manufacturers before. They largely don't seem to care, just feeling they can move on to the next stooge.

From 635nm/500mW diodes that ended up being 660nm/100mW, (and a refund promise that never came) - to some of the more 'reliable' providers doing what RHD mentioned, "Sure we'll fix it up -- in a month -- after you ship it back to us for $180."; they seem to know they have the upper hand and no real accountability.

Even "Honest John" (remember him?) - PriceAngels just started having 'shills' show up as 'ordinary members' to hawk their crap just a week ago. They'll say whatever 'words words words' are neccessary for us 'dumb westerners' to hand over our money; after that, their job is done, as far as they're concerned.

I do think that the only real way to force accountability is like RHD suggested, once a company does this, let the buying community know (here and even on PL, maybe) - to avoid them. That way they can't get the money on bad claims in the first place.

The supplier already got Ablaze's $200. With that kind of markup, do they really need repeat business? Or just to score one of those sales on false claims every once in a while.

See, RHD, That's why I think the source may be smarter than we think. They may not know 3.8mm from a hole in the ground, but I think they do know that "higher nm numbers are selling better right now". So that's what they stick with. They seem to fudge numbers upwards anyways... You know.. like 200mW becoming 1 watt, or 5 watts, and stuff like that.

It'll be interesting to see what the reply is. Maybe they'll say the spectrometer was wrong. (It isn't.)
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685nm:18650 47mW
671nm:PGL3M 281mW DPSS ∙ PGL3C 278mW
655nm:LOC 254mW ∙ OLIKE 221mW ∙ Yob 320mW
638nm:Sanyo 40mW ∙ HL63133 200mW ∙ PGL3C 463mWpk ∙ ML520 700mW
633nm:JDS1145 HeNe 28mW ∙ JDS1145 HeNe 26mW
612nm:MG 05LOR151 HeNe 3mW ∙ REO LSTP 3mW
609nm:REO LHOR 1mW
604nm:REO LSTP 2mW
594nm:Rigel 3mW ∙ LG PGL3C 15mWpk ∙ Lasos 7512 3mW ∙ CNI MGL3 58mWpk
589nm:CNI PGL3C 106mW ∙ CNI PGL3C 85mW
561nm:CNI PGL3C 30mW(41pk)
556nm:CNI PGL3C 20mW(22pk)
544nm:JDS1675P HeNe 2mW ∙ REO LHGR 2mW ∙ Lasos 7786 2mW
532nm:PGL3C 150mW(180pk) ∙ PGL3C 578mWpk ∙ PLC 440mWpk
515nm:JDS 221420GL ArI 30mW
510nm:52mW DG#2 ∙ 50mW 26650 DG
488nm:Nlx DPSS 7mW ∙ JDS 2214 ArI 40mW ∙ JDS FCD488 DPSS 25mW
ML:MG 65A106025 ArI ML 115mW
476/480nm:Nichia Diode 28mW
473nm:PGL3A 45mW(80pk) ∙ PGL3C 110mWpk ∙ PGL3C 95mWpk ∙ RPLB-25 60mWpk
465nm:DTR NDB7676 2.03w
458nm:JDS 2214VL ArI 8mW ∙ JDS 2214VL ArI 12mW ∙ RHD Diode 1.7W
452nm:Osram SM 47mW
445nm:Yob 1410mW ∙ Polaris 156mW ∙ PGL3C 1200mW ∙ DTR-EHG 32650 2136mW
405nm:Yob 630mW ∙ Qfox 750mW ∙ JETL PLC 780mW

Last edited by aryntha; 11-26-2011 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 11-26-2011, 08:48 PM #232
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Default Re: 470nm diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
you still won't tell us who your source is, so that we know not to do business with them in the future.
Actually the source getting named matters little at this point... If someone does contact them that has shopped around, they would only have to look at their prices to know not to deal with them. But on the other hand I agree without it getting named, someone else may fall for the 'high wavelength' ploy.

And my eyeballs agree with my spectrometer as well. the laser Ablaze sent me is just as 'royal blue' as the 1W 445 sitting on my desk.. And looks nothing like my 473's.

Actually i'll try to get beamshots tonight of the one of the 473's and ablaze's laser since they're both about the same power.
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Old 11-26-2011, 09:06 PM #233
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Default Re: 470nm diode

Lets see if I can decode this:
Quote:
Me: I have been working with the new shipment of lasers. I have tested 30 of them, and one of them has gone out. The laser was fine initially but after about 5 minutes of use it no longer works. What kind of warrinty do you have for defective units?

Carrie: Concerned the new shippment of laser , before shippment we alreayd test them more than 30minutes , and they are all ok , we want to know what the Voltage you used to test them ? and your test Procedure ? if it tested in correct they can not go out within five minutes .

Me: I use a 3.6v battery pack for power. 5 of the lasers are wired together. Some of the lasers take a while to warm up and others come on instantly. The one I am concerned with never warms up. I will have to replace it, since if I sold a product with that laser it would be instantly returned.

Carrie: Our engineer told me put five together at the same level , please dont make five of them jagged .

Me: I don't understand what you are saying here.
Why are laser diodes so extremely variable? I mean.. isn't there some sort of standardized production process? It seems like there are plenty of people selling overspec batches and others selling underspec.. and even in the same batch from quality suppliers different lasers seem to behave vastly differently from each other. Why is this?
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Old 11-26-2011, 09:11 PM #234
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Default Re: 470nm diode

Make sure you state they're wired parallel. not in series.

But yeah in general. this is the kind of runaround you get. I think the bad english is on purpose half the time actually.

No matter what it's never going to be 'their fault'.
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:15 PM #235
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Default Re: 470nm diode

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Originally Posted by Ablaze View Post
Lets see if I can decode this:


Why are laser diodes so extremely variable? I mean.. isn't there some sort of standardized production process? It seems like there are plenty of people selling overspec batches and others selling underspec.. and even in the same batch from quality suppliers different lasers seem to behave vastly differently from each other. Why is this?
Hopefully, one of the more knowledgeable members like Pullbangdead will chime in.

However, there are many variables that effect the efficiency and wavelength of a particular diode

One such variable is "where" a particular die is cut from the crystal. The crystal stratum, that the dies are cut from, are comparatively MUCH larger than a single die. The crystal structure, at the molecular level, is slightly different in the center of a crystal than it is at the edge of the crystal. If the die is cut from the middle, it will react differently than one which is cut from the edge of the crystal. That molecular variability will effect the efficiency and wavelength of a particular diode.

As I alluded to above, there are other variables, but this example can help explain how different diodes can be different; even if they are made at the same time, by the same people, using the same machinery and components

Peace,
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:22 PM #236
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Default Re: 470nm diode

His lasers he's having a problem with are 532nm DPSS Dave.. That's a WHOLE different set of variables there heh.. Mostly human related... All DPSS lasers that i'm aware of.. are assembled by hand. They also have a lot more working components than a diode laser, and even changes in temperature can affect system performance.. 'stable' DPSS lasers that work at the same power... every time.. have even more components that no small 'cheap' dpss laser is going to have either. Namely temperature stabilization.. possibly independent loops on multiple components (your pump will want to be a different temp than your gain medium.. etc).. as well as optical feedback that's constantly varying pump current to maintain a steady output.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:14 AM #237
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Default Re: 470nm diode

You make building a diode sound a lot like cooking meth, daguin.

Every set of gloves I have made has had some modules that start up instantly and some that require a warm up, even when they are attached to the same power source and are all the same temperature.

Thanks qume.. I'm looking forward to the time when cheap green diode lasers become available.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:41 AM #238
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Default Re: 470nm diode

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Thank you for testing it quome.

Incidently, my suppiler said he uses a to18 diode.. whatever that is, and that if I order 100 raw diodes I can get them for $66 each.. so not exactly the best deal.

I'm really not very surprised by the reading either, and I have no idea if I'm going to return it.
You'd be a fool not to. You have hard proof that this product was grossly mis-advertised, proof that you can show the seller.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:43 AM #239
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Default Re: 470nm diode

The hard part is getting them to actually give a refund regardless of what proof you have.. and actually getting a refund even if they say they're going to.. High probability they'll keep the laser and the money..
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:44 AM #240
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Default Re: 470nm diode

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You'd be a fool not to. You have hard proof that this product was grossly mis-advertised, proof that you can show the seller.
Not to mention the fact that there's no reason to want to keep it. It's a diode that you can buy for $59, inside a housing with a driver that you could probably grab for $5.

Albeit, 3.8mm housings are actually kind of tough to find right now.
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SAFETY & IMPORTANT READING (threads authored and contributed to by various members of LPF):
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- Info release from Laserglow - Default Canadian restrictions on portable lasers (link)
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