Wicked Laser Arctic Spyder III

Lotus Flower...special...

If everything goes right, that's a good thing. Should I be upset if things go well?

Something tells me from your personality, that you are conceited and like to talk down to people and think you are better than them.

Lotus_Darkrose said:

Also, there is a such thing as putting too much confidence in someone. What if there comes a time when someone is indeed scamming (this is still up in the air in this case), and you keep telling everyone not to be suspicious and to trust the person.

Someone newer sees you telling everyone you think he's trustworthy, and they end up biting on the sale. What would you say in defense to them complaining about getting scammed?. Yes, it's a hypothetical scenario, but it could potentially happen at one point.

I'm not trying to start a quarrel with you, Infinitus, but with the scams that have happened plenty on these forums, and outside the forums (just everyday life), how can you be so quick to shoot down suspicions?

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And an FYI=it's very possible to be suspicious without being malicious. Try and add some tact into your conversations and I guarantee you'll get farther with your ideas. Everything you've said has been negative, while also not answering the questions directed at you personally. It's odd that you are so suspicious, and Ive answered every question presented to me in a timely manor, accompanied by supporting evidence.

Why couldn't you have PM'd me directly, like I've asked MULTIPLE times?

I have been nothing but open, and up front, while you have done nothing but crap on me, and evade direct questions. That seems a little more suspicious to me than anything else.

Either way this has been fun and I'm very glad that the laser sold with your help, Lotus Flower.:thanks:

And btw- I have absolutely NO problem going through a middle man, if requested as I have nothing to hide.

Lotus_Darkrose said:

Lotus Flower...special...

If everything goes right, that's a good thing. Should I be upset if things go well?

Something tells me from your personality, that you are conceited and like to talk down to people and think you are better than them.

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You obviously didn't get my point, whatsoever. I give up, and also win at the same time. Sweet sweet victory.

YnotBeHappy said:

Either way this has been fun and I'm very glad that the laser sold with your help, Lotus Flower.:thanks:

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Sorry, but I won't partake in your trolling attempt this time.

Check your PM lotus, last post deleted, as it was uncalled for.

Followed suit, no sense posting bickering back and forth. Does not serve a purpose.

Thanks to all that participated in this bazaar thread. I will most definitely post back after I ship the laser (Monday monring) and will ask crabapple to do the same. I'm not sure if he wants to share the reasoning behind all of this, but he is more than welcome to if he so desires.

Thanks again guys, and I look forward to being a part of the community here.

YnotBeHappy said:

Thanks to all that participated in this bazaar thread. I will most definitely post back after I ship the laser (Monday monring) and will ask crabapple to do the same. I'm not sure if he wants to share the reasoning behind all of this, but he is more than welcome to if he so desires.

Thanks again guys, and I look forward to being a part of the community here.

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If you stick around, you will find that we have a long history of working to protect the membership here from harm.

And, yes. Paying more for something than it is worth, is harm. Taking advantage of someone's naivete or good nature, is harm. Withholding pertinent information or providing false information, is harm.

Look around. We just slammed a veteran for posting a "secret" laser build for sale
Respect is not a birthright. It is earned. Your whining responses to criticism does not earn you any respect here.

You have the right to ask for anything that you want.
I have the right to tell you that you are asking too much.

You have the right to keep information private
I have the right to ask you to disclose it

You have the right to be subtly condescending.
I have the right to be blatantly abrasive.

Neither of those rise to the level of banning or deletion
But over the long run, our character will out.

Peace,
dave

daguin said:

Not an accusation, just a couple of questions for consideration . . . .

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:yh: Questions are always good. My own personal and not so humble opinion on the matter is that there is no such thing as a bad or stupid question. As for accusations, I wouldn't take them seriously anyway, life's too short

daguin said:

At what level does asking too much for an item (because of personal need or any other reason) become a SCAM?

If he had asked for $550 and dropped the price to $500 would you still feel "confident"?

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IMO asking too much for an item is not really a scam. Allow me to elaborate;

If as in this example he asked for $550, or even (-Crazy I know-) $5000, it would still not be a scam. It would however be extreme price gouging, and given the current situation very unethical.

As gouging goes, it would also be pretty stupid. Given the people on this forum, it would be kind of like trying to sell a piece of glass off as a diamond to a jeweler.

His original post was asking for $320, which is probably more or less what he paid initially. Are we really saying that it's wrong to want to make money?

daguin said:

There are many more kinds of "SCAMS" than just taking money and shipping nothing or shipping trash

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I absolutely agree, however to me that would be more indicative of a traditional scam, not price gouging and speculation. If after all this he were to not send an arctic with goggles, battery, charger etc.. and instead shipped nothing or a 5mW laser. Well that is a scam. For the simple reason that he completely misrepresented the end product/result.

daguin said:

Is the guy who stands on the corner, asking for change for food, SCAMMING anyone if he spends the money on alcohol instead?

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Yes, he is. These kinds of arguments fall into more of a gray area though... what if he bought new clothes instead? If we go down this road we need to start taking motive into account

daguin said:

If a person gets someone to pay a higher price for something because his mother needs an operation and his mother is healthy, is that a SCAM?

Peace,
dave

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Absolutely! The reason being again that the person is misrepresenting what the money will produce.

Dave you seem like a guy I would enjoy having a proper discussionfriend::beer::drunk with, it's very refreshing:beer: It's a shame I'm on the wrong coast, or are you on the wrong coast:na:

Lotus_Darkrose said:

Also, there is a such thing as putting too much confidence in someone. What if there comes a time when someone is indeed scamming (this is still up in the air in this case), and you keep telling everyone not to be suspicious and to trust the person.

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:thinking:When did I say to do either of those things?

Lotus_Darkrose said:

Someone newer sees you telling everyone you think he's trustworthy, and they end up biting on the sale. What would you say in defense to them complaining about getting scammed?. Yes, it's a hypothetical scenario, but it could potentially happen at one point.

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Ok, again, where did I say that?

What I did say repeatedly is that a middle man should be used. If someone newer sees me saying that, doesn't do it, and gets scammed, I'm not gonna feel sorry for them.

Lotus_Darkrose said:

I'm not trying to start a quarrel with you, Infinitus, but with the scams that have happened plenty on these forums, and outside the forums (just everyday life), how can you be so quick to shoot down suspicions?

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No worries about quarreling, I just think that it's very easy to get caught up seeing only one aspect of the situation.

I agree that scams do happen from time to time, and I think the procedure in place to deal with those scams is sufficient. Anyone who doesn't follow it really has no one else to blame. If a seller specifically refused to use a middle man, THEN I would be greatly concerned.

Aside from that, money is typically sent via paypal, that by itself offers a little protection as well.

In this situation I stuck around because IMO YnotBeHappy did what was asked of him, and answered question. What more can, or should be expected of a seller?

It's very easy and tempting to go through life being skeptical, paranoid, and afraid. This thread severely lacked in balance of thought... at least in the beginning and middle.

I guess it comes down the golden rule... treat others as you would want to be treated.

I want people to treat me with courtesy, respect, and to give me the benefit of the doubt, so I end up doing the same whenever I can.

My $.02

FRICK! I just hit a combination of keys that closed my browser. My "brick" of a response was lost. I have two lasers to build yet today. :yabbmad:

Here is a quick response instead.

Let's stop using the label SCAM for a moment. Much of what is below deals with semantics anyway. SCAM, usury, price gouging, etc. all deal with one central concept -- unethical marketing

Is asking more than a product is worth, while trying to limit the education of potential buyers to that fact, the act of an ethical seller?

My answer to that is, It is an unethical act.

Peace,
dave

InfinitusEquitas said:

:yh: Questions are always good. My own personal and not so humble opinion on the matter is that there is no such thing as a bad or stupid question. As for accusations, I wouldn't take them seriously anyway, life's too short



IMO asking too much for an item is not really a scam. Allow me to elaborate;

If as in this example he asked for $550, or even (-Crazy I know-) $5000, it would still not be a scam. It would however be extreme price gouging, and given the current situation very unethical.

As gouging goes, it would also be pretty stupid. Given the people on this forum, it would be kind of like trying to sell a piece of glass off as a diamond to a jeweler.

His original post was asking for $320, which is probably more or less what he paid initially. Are we really saying that it's wrong to want to make money?



I absolutely agree, however to me that would be more indicative of a traditional scam, not price gouging and speculation. If after all this he were to not send an arctic with goggles, battery, charger etc.. and instead shipped nothing or a 5mW laser. Well that is a scam. For the simple reason that he completely misrepresented the end product/result.



Yes, he is. These kinds of arguments fall into more of a gray area though... what if he bought new clothes instead? If we go down this road we need to start taking motive into account



Absolutely! The reason being again that the person is misrepresenting what the money will produce.

Dave you seem like a guy I would enjoy having a proper discussionfriend::beer::drunk with, it's very refreshing:beer: It's a shame I'm on the wrong coast, or are you on the wrong coast:na:

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Let me say this....I am new to this forum but have been around lasers for a couple of years. No custom builds just your manufactured ones Dragon and Wicked. Since joining the forum, I have educated myself on lasers somewhat to know that you can get a lot more laser for the money getting a custom build.

My stand on this purchase is that I like the look of the Artic and more importantly helping someone out that just needs a helping hand. If the deal goes south oh well it just goes south. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to lose my money that I work hard for but I can sleep at night knowing that I held my end of the bargain.

I as the seller will post how this turns out and then everyone who commented in the post will know.

Thanks and God Bless everyone. Steve

daguin said:

Is asking more than a product is worth, while trying to limit the education of potential buyers to that fact, the act of an ethical seller?

My answer to that is, It is an unethical act.

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That's true. I have considered that, and it's something that bugs me great deal.

On the flip side though, you do have to consider what is an ethical markup for a product?

How is it to be determined?

I struggle with this subject daily and truly wish that there was a good answer, but outside factors make it impossible to actually have "ethical" prices. As a result most businesses attempt to price their products to the point the market will bear, and as high as the market will bear.

How much information is a seller supposed to provide so as not to be unethical?

I believe too much information is just as bad as too little.

Given this scenario, the laser with two goggles from Wicked, right now, runs $374.70 shipped. If he bought the laser at current prices... he's taking a loss. Even if he got the laser when they were still 199.99+~30 shipping+extra goggles 30... He's not making much on the sale.

There is an astonishing amount of information for this laser, given a little research.

I think Wicked has quite a bit to answer for in the ethics department. Their laser is overpriced.

About accidentally deleting stuff... believe it or not, that's happened to me more often than I can count. I bought identical mechanical keyboards for work and home to make sure that I don't hit wrong key combos anymore.

Infinitus, when you quoted me, and asked: "Ok, again, where did I say that?", please look at the non-highlighted part where I say "Yes, it's a hypothetical scenario, but it could potentially happen at one point."

Anyways, I see this:
1. We stated the laser was overpriced.
2. Someone didn't care and bought it anyways.
3. ^We can't help this.
4. The buyer hasn't received the unit so he cannot say anything about the quality of the laser until he receives it.
5. YnotBeHappy is given the benefit of the doubt for now, and he can learn what things are really worth from now on and gain knowledge if he wants to be a member of the community.
6. I wait and hope to be proved wrong.

Lotus_Darkrose said:

Infinitus, when you quoted me, and asked: "Ok, again, where did I say that?", please look at the non-highlighted part where I say "Yes, it's a hypothetical scenario, but it could potentially happen at one point."

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Your exact wording was:

Lotus_Darkrose said:

Someone newer sees you telling everyone you think he's trustworthy, and they end up biting on the sale. What would you say in defense to them complaining about getting scammed?. Yes, it's a hypothetical scenario, but it could potentially happen at one point.

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I haven't and I don't go around calling anyone trustworthy - unless I actually know from experience that they are trustworthy.

You present a paradox hypothetical in asking me to provide an answer to situation that cannot present itself since I never said he was trustworthy. However even if I did, I also repeatedly said to use a middle man.

Can I ask you a hypothetical: You said before that you bounced a laser beam off of a mirror on the moon, and measured the exact distance to be 375489km. What formula did you use to figure out the distance?

See... not fun when I put words into your mouth right?:na: I think we covered this enough now.

Now as for the by the numbers breakdown:

Lotus_Darkrose said:

Anyways, I see this:
1. We stated the laser was overpriced.

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The laser price was reduced, once he was told it was too high. I believe the final price is even lower. It's up to YnotBeHappy or crabapple if they want to tell us what the final sale price was.

Lotus_Darkrose said:

2. Someone didn't care and bought it anyways.

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Someone who likes the laser for what it is, bought it after having followed the thread and all the posts.

Lotus_Darkrose said:

3. ^We can't help this.

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Why would we want to stop someone from buying something he wants to buy?

Lotus_Darkrose said:

4. The buyer hasn't received the unit so he cannot say anything about the quality of the laser until he receives it.

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That is correct, but he has already posted saying he will post what happens.

Lotus_Darkrose said:

5. YnotBeHappy is given the benefit of the doubt for now, and he can learn what things are really worth from now on and gain knowledge if he wants to be a member of the community.

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Again, that is correct, we agree:beer:

Lotus_Darkrose said:

6. I wait and hope to be proved wrong.

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Take it from me, you learn a lot more from being wrong than from being right.

Well, this has been a marathon thread. Can't wait to see how it all turns out!

Cheers:beer:

Sorry but that was a lot of words for something so simple.