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Old 03-28-2012, 09:03 PM #49
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
I don't see how it is always possible to avoid this situation..
It's not.

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Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
If I think the person is hogging builds, I may say, "Sorry, you seem to claim a LOT of signature builds and I'm going to agree to disagree here."
I don't think that will get you warm responses from anyone. For me at least, this is all about respect, not technicalities. If I say something like that ^ to someone, I'm being disrespectful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
II believe this forum is about sharing. RHD is one of the people that led me to feel that way. Initially I felt the desire to "keep a cool host secret" but his attitude with the Ben boost driver and some of his hosts made me feel like this is a forum for sharing, not hoarding.
I recognize what you're saying. In some threads people have asked where I got a host from, and I've replied in the threads with URLs, etc. But again, I don't think anyone is suggesting that all hosts need to be taken off the table out of respect, once they've built by someone. We're talking about distinct builds - "signature" builds as we've been calling them.

For me, again, it's about respect. If it's a host where I think that my selling a build in it would cause someone else to feel disrespected, then that's enough for me to abort.


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Old 03-28-2012, 09:04 PM #50
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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Originally Posted by jayrob View Post
Of course if you got a kit from a seller, there could be no possible objections of you selling it. You got it from him!

About the Saik. This is a little different situation...

Moh announced that he was out of business, and was not going to be selling kits. It was then, that I had started offering the Saik kit. When it was no longer being offered.

And also, I knew for a fact, that Moh would not have a problem with me selling a kit that he was no longer offering...

Then Moh brought it back. If he came to me and asked me to stop offering it. I certainly would remove it from what I offer.

Of course, I would also ask him for the 'mutual respect' to be returned...
Okay, good!

Maybe we should just have a list of hosts that members here have used before, Introduced to the forum, and are particularly protective over.

That way everybody would just understand that there are certain hosts you should steer clear of?
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:07 PM #51
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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Originally Posted by jakeGT View Post
Maybe we should just have a list of hosts that members here have used before, Introduced to the forum, and are particularly protective over.

That way everybody would just understand that there are certain hosts you should steer clear of?
Very good idea. I'm sure that there are hosts/designs that some builders could care less about, and other which they care about. If the more prolific laser and kit builders can put together a list, and post updated lists into a sticky, that would offer both protection and advertising to those members.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:12 PM #52
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

Yes, it can even by anonymous. Just a list of hosts. That have been spoken of as "signature builds" by a seller. Once you see the list, if you choose to carry on and copy someone's signature build, you lose a lot of respect. That way you at least know what not to order before hand so you don't take chances and have to "eat" handfuls of old hosts.

BTW for all those eating hosts in this thread, you must have good teeth and a strong stomach.....
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:14 PM #53
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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Okay, good!

Maybe we should just have a list of hosts that members here have used before, Introduced to the forum, and are particularly protective over.

That way everybody would just understand that there are certain hosts you should steer clear of?
Or put a gallery-type thread together (Like Jayrob) or get a website. Link it in your sig. Make it easy for people to avoid using hosts you don't want them to use.

Last edited by Ghostchrome; 03-28-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:18 PM #54
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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Yes, it can even by anonymous. Just a list of hosts. That have been spoken of as "signature builds" by a seller. Once you see the list, if you choose to carry on and copy someone's signature build, you lose a lot of respect. That way you at least know what not to order before hand so you don't take chances and have to "eat" handfuls of old hosts.

BTW for all those eating hosts in this thread, you must have good teeth and a strong stomach.....
It wouldn't need to be anonymous, but I can see some people wanting it to be photos-only.

If we start listing all the "signature" builds out there, by name, model, and source of purchase, well, then I'd really love to have a copy of that list
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:20 PM #55
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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Or put a gallery-type thread together (Like Jayrob) or get a website. Link it in your sig. Make it easy for people to avoid using hosts you don't want them to use.
That's quite a brilliant idea.
Something along the line's of DTR's reviews thread.

These are my signature hosts and builds I have done. This thread is not only to show creativeness and ingenuity, but to refer to builds I personally consider my own. Please do not re-create any of my designs following....

@rhd, Yeah it would probably be photo's of the hosts only, that way nobody could even attempt to recreate your heatsink designs etc..
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:22 PM #56
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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Or put a gallery-type thread together (Like Jayrob) or get a website. Link it in your sig. Make it easy for people to avoid using hosts you don't want them to use.
AFAIK the member who's hosts are being discussed does exactly that... keeps a summary thread for all his builds/tutorials, and has a link to them in his signature. IDK if he keeps it up to date though.

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Old 03-28-2012, 09:27 PM #57
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Yes. Exactly. No one is saying you can't make the lasers, but if you intend to resell for profit, than yes, don't build in the same hosts.
A. How many hosts does one person get to claim?
B. Profit? Haha. I don't think there is much profit to be made. I'm doing this for fun.

Quote:
Also no one would object to you greatly improving on a host in some way. There are builds in common between some great builders out there, but there is something unique to them, despite using a completely common host.
I don't get that impression AT ALL. My intention was to build this with a copper sink and paint it with high end automotive paint with sparkles and gloss. But I get the impression the host is off-limits period!

Quote:
There are SO MANY hosts out there, and as you discovered it is difficult to find the right one. So can't you see where a person might feel irked if after they make a build, someone flat out copies them?
No, that almost seems contradictory. Yes, there are lots of hosts. But there aren't (in my searching) lots of hosts that end up making good lasers.

And as I said before, ANY host I discover and build is fair game. I will post the link to the host in my for sale thread. If someone wants to make it better, cheaper, different, etc... Then let the market decide. I don't need protection if my laser is made well.

Quote:
Thing is he puts in MASSIVE amounts of effort into his work where lasers are concerned, so when someone else comes along, and wants to copy him... yeah he takes it personally.
I don't see using the same host as copying. If I somehow copied his heat sink, driver, etc... Sure. But I'm putting much of the same effort into my design. I built my own, completely different copper one step heat sink on the stainless build. After he showed me his December build thread today I looked at it and he used a totally different aluminum design.

There was no copying, just happened to find the same host.

Quote:
Though again, I could be wrong, but I bet he would have no problem with you just building for a personal collection.
Do you really have to ask anyone if you want to use a host for your own laser collection???

Quote:

So your take is that you made an investment, without doing the proper legwork, and now because of it, the other guys need to bend in how they approach things?
Proper legwork? Whoah nelly! What is the proper legwork? Is there a laser patent office that I can check to see which hosts are registered with which builders? Or do I just look through every for sale thread for the past two years?

What exactly should I have done?

Quote:
See if you can return the flashlights, or just resell them at cost if it's a matter of just recouping losses instead. You would avoid the drama that way.
No offense, but this makes me think you haven't purchased hosts. I highly doubt that a Chinese site is going to take back my hosts because someone else already makes lasers with that host? And shipping from China and back again?

Quote:
Yes they are owed respect. YOU are building based on THEIR work and research, so yes, in my eyes that earns them a measure of respect.
No, I'm not. I bought a host and I built a laser in that host. I did nothing based on their work. You are misunderstanding the situation here.

Quote:

In this case it seems like you want to sell a bunch of lasers, all using the same host and design as that other person.
Have you read the thread? I have two hosts that I bought. I wanted to sell them but found out someone else already claims those hosts to be their own. I have no desire to sell a bunch of lasers using the same host and design as that other person.


Quote:

I do have a problem with it. The guy who came up with Mickey is long dead! Mickey should have passed into the public domain decades ago, but because that isn't happening, NOTHING is entering the public domain.
You obviously know nothing. Walt Disney's head is cryogenically frozen and stored in the castle and he will be pissed if he is re-awakened and doesn't own Mickey!

Seriously, so Disney should give up Mickey and you generally dislike patent trolls, but anyone who builds a laser in a commercially available flashlight host OWNS the rights to that build? I fail to see the connection of your logic there.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:32 PM #58
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

I'm guessing it comes back to the thread title itself. Etiquette

The etiquette of the forum based on signature hosts is as follows:

If you've only seen it once from 1 builder, then definitely shoot them a PM and ask.

Hopefully we can get a list together of signature hosts not to use, so nobody has to eat hosts', time, and money
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:46 PM #59
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me:D
If I think the person is hogging builds, I may say, "Sorry, you seem to claim a LOT of signature builds and I'm going to agree to disagree here."

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Originally Posted by rhd View Post
I don't think that will get you warm responses from anyone. For me at least, this is all about respect, not technicalities. If I say something like that ^ to someone, I'm being disrespectful.
That is because you are Canadian!

Seriously, I respectfully disagree. You can disagree with someone over a host situation with out being disrespectful.

I can say, "Hey RHD, I have this host I wanna sell and you say it is one of your signature hosts, but dude you have like an unlimited number of signature hosts and I disagree. I still like and respect you buddy but I'm going to go against you on this one."

You might be mad, but I'm not being disrespectful. Well, I don't think that I am anyway.

Here's the real thing RHD. I haven't ever had a problem with anyone else on this. Maybe it is coincidence. But I am certain you and I could work it out easily. I don't seem to be able to do that with another person. I guess it is just a personality clash?

Even the thing you PM'd me about the other day. I immediately apologized and try to correct it. I don't have issues with apologizing or fixing a wrong. But I have to agree that it is a wrong.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:50 PM #60
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

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It wouldn't need to be anonymous, but I can see some people wanting it to be photos-only.
I agree, if it is anonymous you wouldn't be able to ask them for permission and be told "no."

Quote:
If we start listing all the "signature" builds out there, by name, model, and source of purchase, well, then I'd really love to have a copy of that list
I agree. Especially if you want to purchase a certain build. It could be good for the sellers as well.
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445nm Survival Laser @ 1.25W - GIFTED
445nm Stainless Steel Monster with H140 diode @1.62A - 2.15W!
450nm rhd single mode @ 190mW

532nm O-like 50 mW pen from Cajun Lasers - small dot, tight beam!
532nm O-like Crown, rated @ 400mW, metered @ ~450mW with AW battery!
532nm O-like Crown rated @ 500mW, not yet tested
532nm RPL-165 @ 204mW
532nm RPL-375 @ 427mW

635nm rhd Lipstick Tube @ ~485+ mW
638nm Fat Boy @ 825mW - custom build

650nm Bolly BL-8006 @ 319mW

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Old 03-28-2012, 10:06 PM #61
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

See my responses in green.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post
A. How many hosts does one person get to claim?
B. Profit? Haha. I don't think there is much profit to be made. I'm doing this for fun.
a. Maybe there should be limit if there is a great number of them, but I'm betting most builders would be happy with <20 hosts for "signature" builds.
b. If you're only doing this for fun, than I fail to see the problem in taking a financial loss.

I don't get that impression AT ALL. My intention was to build this with a copper sink and paint it with high end automotive paint with sparkles and gloss. But I get the impression the host is off-limits period!
Did you explain all of that to him? Or did you just ask, Hey can I build a laser in that same host you used? Did you offer to also credit him with finding the original host?
No, that almost seems contradictory. Yes, there are lots of hosts. But there aren't (in my searching) lots of hosts that end up making good lasers.
My point being that even though it is hard to find a good host, there is a very large pool of potential hosts to choose from. A large enough pool where you can find something relatively unique to use to call your own.
And as I said before, ANY host I discover and build is fair game. I will post the link to the host in my for sale thread. If someone wants to make it better, cheaper, different, etc... Then let the market decide. I don't need protection if my laser is made well.
Great.

I don't see using the same host as copying. If I somehow copied his heat sink, driver, etc... Sure. But I'm putting much of the same effort into my design. I built my own, completely different copper one step heat sink on the stainless build. After he showed me his December build thread today I looked at it and he used a totally different aluminum design.
There was no copying, just happened to find the same host.
Well first off you pasted a link to said host in his thread, when you knew he didn't want you to, and only after you took it down. That's where I imagine some of his reticence to just say "yes go ahead" comes from.
Second to me it's not clear if you explained all the other changes you're making to the design, paint, heatsink, different adapter, different driver, different lens, ect,.
These details do make a difference.

Do you really have to ask anyone if you want to use a host for your own laser collection???
Of course not, but you do if you plan to sell it.
Proper legwork? Whoah nelly! What is the proper legwork? Is there a laser patent office that I can check to see which hosts are registered with which builders? Or do I just look through every for sale thread for the past two years?
What exactly should I have done?
In your case, maybe just consider, that, hey, maybe that guy that didn't want me to paste a links in his thread, wouldn't appreciate me building FOR SALE lasers in the same hosts he uses.
How about just looking through the last 20 of their for sale threads?


No offense, but this makes me think you haven't purchased hosts. I highly doubt that a Chinese site is going to take back my hosts because someone else already makes lasers with that host? And shipping from China and back again?
I generally don't care how long it takes for my order to get to me, so shipping to me is usually free from china. Price for shipping back depends on on the size of the package.
Basically I wanted to point out that you don't have to EAT the cost of the hosts, but likely have the option of just eating the cost of return shipping. As for reason for sending back... don't tell me every single thing that you order from china comes to you working perfectly... where is this magical chinese place you order from?

No, I'm not. I bought a host and I built a laser in that host. I did nothing based on their work. You are misunderstanding the situation here.
Uhm, ok, so you came up with a way to make a laser without a host, heatsink, driver, battery and lens. How? I would LOVE TO KNOW. Or how you came up with the safe current for running a diode? Did you led a bunch of diodes to figure that out, or did you build based on the threads, and tutorials on the forum? Face it, you are using the groundwork laid by these guys, and they deserve some respect for it.
Have you read the thread? I have two hosts that I bought. I wanted to sell them but found out someone else already claims those hosts to be their own. I have no desire to sell a bunch of lasers using the same host and design as that other person.
I read the OP and skimmed through the rest. If it's a question of TWO hosts, just make the lasers for your own collection. If you feel the desire to sell them down the road, do so locally, or in private over PMs.
You obviously know nothing. Walt Disney's head is cryogenically frozen and stored in the castle and he will be pissed if he is re-awakened and doesn't own Mickey!
Seriously, so Disney should give up Mickey and you generally dislike patent trolls, but anyone who builds a laser in a commercially available flashlight host OWNS the rights to that build? I fail to see the connection of your logic there.
Disney is a completely different scenario. Walt Disney is long dead, and his descendants have profited immensely from his works already.
Last I checked everyone here was alive and kicking

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Old 03-28-2012, 10:08 PM #62
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

If you do something in life that you know will upset another person, then it doesn't matter whether you agree that it ought to, you are evidencing your disrespect for them by the mere action of choosing to do that thing anyway.

In other words, undertaking an action that you know will upset a person, shows your disrespect for their feelings, even if you don't agree that the action should upset them.
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SAFETY & IMPORTANT READING (threads authored and contributed to by various members of LPF):
- Federal Aviation Administration - Laser Safety Initiative (link)
- Info release from Laserglow - Default Canadian restrictions on portable lasers (link)
- The Necessity of Safety Goggles (link)


Last edited by rhd; 03-28-2012 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:43 PM #63
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
If you do something in life that you know will upset another person, then it doesn't matter whether you agree that it ought to, you are evidencing your disrespect for them by the mere action of choosing to do that thing anyway.

In other words, undertaking an action that you know will upset a person, shows your disrespect for their feelings, even if you don't agree that the action should upset them.
Well, I operate on what I think is right and wrong. I have a tough time handling feelings. They are too gray area for me. I prefer to hash it out logically.

Anyway, I'm eating two builds. That's all. In the future if I accidentally step on someone's toes I'll talk it out and if we can't come to an agreement then they can hate me and try to turn the forum against me, whatever.

I find it interesting that some of the folks here arguing against intellectual property laws are the same ones arguing for the rights of someone claiming a host that they bought as their own.
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405nm tsteele93 12x build @ 545mW

445nm Survival Laser @ 1.25W - GIFTED
445nm Stainless Steel Monster with H140 diode @1.62A - 2.15W!
450nm rhd single mode @ 190mW

532nm O-like 50 mW pen from Cajun Lasers - small dot, tight beam!
532nm O-like Crown, rated @ 400mW, metered @ ~450mW with AW battery!
532nm O-like Crown rated @ 500mW, not yet tested
532nm RPL-165 @ 204mW
532nm RPL-375 @ 427mW

635nm rhd Lipstick Tube @ ~485+ mW
638nm Fat Boy @ 825mW - custom build

650nm Bolly BL-8006 @ 319mW

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Old 03-28-2012, 11:02 PM #64
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Default Re: Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
See my responses in green.
Dude, I have to use the forum in the light color setting, I can barely read that!

Quote:
A. How many hosts does one person get to claim?
B. Profit? Haha. I don't think there is much profit to be made. I'm doing this for fun.
a. Maybe there should be limit if there is a great number of them, but I'm betting most builders would be happy with <20 hosts for "signature" builds.
b. If you're only doing this for fun, than I fail to see the problem in taking a financial loss.
The builder I spoke to made it VERY CLEAR in PM that he believes there is NO LIMIT to the number of hosts that can be signature builds.

And just because I'm doing this for fun, how do you figure that makes it no problem to set two hosts on a shelf for no reason other than not to hurt someone's feelings?

Quote:
I don't get that impression AT ALL. My intention was to build this with a copper sink and paint it with high end automotive paint with sparkles and gloss. But I get the impression the host is off-limits period!
Did you explain all of that to him? Or did you just ask, Hey can I build a laser in that same host you used? Did you offer to also credit him with finding the original host?
To be honest I just figured it was a couple of grown men saying, "Hey, I already bought a couple of those hosts - do you mind if I sell them and I don't plan to order anymore?" I didn't realize I had to tap dance around it with a bunch of details and conditions.


Quote:
My point being that even though it is hard to find a good host, there is a very large pool of potential hosts to choose from. A large enough pool where you can find something relatively unique to use to call your own.
I don't want to find a host to "call my own." I just want to build some intersting hosts and unload them when I am done. I don't have any ego in the game. No one has to credit me with discovering a host, or name anything after me or ask me for permission to use a host that anyone can buy!

It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't derive any sense of self-worth off being recognized for building lasers. It is just a fun thing to do.


Quote:
How about just looking through the last 20 of their for sale threads?
Whose for sale threads? Just that one builder? Or RHD? DTR? Are there only certain members who deserve to have their for sale threads checked? Just the special ones?

Quote:
I bought a host and I built a laser in that host. I did nothing based on their work. You are misunderstanding the situation here.

Uhm, ok, so you came up with a way to make a laser without a host, heatsink, driver, battery and lens. How? I would LOVE TO KNOW. Or how you came up with the safe current for running a diode? Did you led a bunch of diodes to figure that out, or did you build based on the threads, and tutorials on the forum? Face it, you are using the groundwork laid by these guys, and they deserve some respect for it.
That doesn't even make sense! Are you saying this one builder discovered the safe current to run an H140 diode? I don't even have a choice really, I'm using store bought drivers and 1.8 is about as high as I can go.

I purchased a flashlight from a store. I took it apart and measured what size heat sink I would need. I purchased diodes from someone else on the forum. I purchased a driver from someone else. Etc...

I did not see this sellers how to build thread on this host and when you see the differences, it is clear that I did my own build. He uses his own proprietary drivers, he makes his own sinks, etc...

Quote:
I read the OP and skimmed through the rest. If it's a question of TWO hosts, just make the lasers for your own collection. If you feel the desire to sell them down the road, do so locally, or in private over PMs.
A. Is that considered fair, or would that be just as frowned upon or moreso than selling them openly.

B. How do you sell via PM? How does anyone know you are selling it? Etc?

Thanks!
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405nm tsteele93 12x build @ 545mW

445nm Survival Laser @ 1.25W - GIFTED
445nm Stainless Steel Monster with H140 diode @1.62A - 2.15W!
450nm rhd single mode @ 190mW

532nm O-like 50 mW pen from Cajun Lasers - small dot, tight beam!
532nm O-like Crown, rated @ 400mW, metered @ ~450mW with AW battery!
532nm O-like Crown rated @ 500mW, not yet tested
532nm RPL-165 @ 204mW
532nm RPL-375 @ 427mW

635nm rhd Lipstick Tube @ ~485+ mW
638nm Fat Boy @ 825mW - custom build

650nm Bolly BL-8006 @ 319mW

Laser Safety and Eye Injury

Last edited by tsteele93; 03-28-2012 at 11:05 PM.
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