Selling etiquette and "host ownership"

Someone define "signature" host for me please. Are we talking about some of the cool looking, one-off builds that some of you guys like rhd and Lazeerer do, or are we talking about a host that Jayrob has been selling exclusively for years?

Ghostchrome said:

Someone define "signature" host for me please. Are we talking about some of the cool looking, one-off builds that some of you guys like rhd and Lazeerer do, or are we talking about a host that Jayrob has been selling exclusively for years?

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All 3 of those.

Jay sells kits. It would be wrong for me to sell any of those kits in my eyes.

I sell both Kits and complete builds. No one has ever attempted to resell any of mine.

rhd sells complete build. Same as Above^

None of the respected sellers have attempted to resell each other stuff Unless it was Asked and GIven the OK.

I think "signature" laser are laser with names. Sellers gives the laser a name when the host is unique

tsteele93 said:

There really should IMHO be a limit there. One person shouldn't be able to stake claims to dozens of flashlights and claim them as their own. There has to be a point where another builder would just say, "ok, hate me - I don't care what you think - I'm selling these."

You can't claim everything!

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You're right. Nobody should be able to claim everything. But that doesn't happen.

A dozen "signature" builds, when there are many thousands of flashlights available (thousands of which are nice) doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

tsteele93 said:

I do believe in intellectual property and I don't think it is right to steal things other people have designed or own. But flashlights are a commercially available product available to anyone and I do not believe it is right to monopolize one.

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It's funny, I actually DON'T particularly believe in intellectual property rules as they are presently implemented in most of the west. I think it's a flawed system. Monopolies are given out to people who don't actually invent or produce the items they're claiming protection over. Patent trolls extort actual innovators. The objectives of copyright protection are obsolete (like "enabling and fostering creativity" - we don't need protection to do that in 2012 - almost everyone has access to the tools of creation). For that matter, we're not even letting copyright expire anymore, thanks to Disney's lawyers pressing for term extensions every time Mickey Mouse is about to go public domain.

Long story short, I'm NOT a fan of intellectual property rules as they are today. I think they are largely broken.

But what we've discussed in this thread, at least to my mind, is not about hard and fast, technical, intellectual property law. It's not even about explicit forum-mandated intellectual property rules. In my mind, it's about relationships. Relationships with other forum members, and the community in general. It's about keeping the peace, having friends, and gaining the respect of other people that are trying to make a go of the hobby we all love.

Sure, if you want to sell an "Ancient Light" clone of my 445nm build in an Everready host from 1905, I couldn't stop you. You might even raise some really logical arguments for why it was technically an okay thing to do. But you'd bug me in the process, and probably not impress anyone that was looking at your builds and trying to get a sense for your own level of originality and creativity.

(For clarity, this example ^ above was just a random hypothetical. It didn't come from anywhere. Nobody has suggested doing that. It's not what this thread was about.)

Well, I would say always ask, especially if you are concerned about stepping on people's toes. Just put yourself in these guys' position - The Gold Rule rule and whatnot - How would you feel if someone started selling hosts that you've been selling or have pioneered? You might care. You might not.

At first I was like, "Why would these guys care if someone uses a host that they used in a build once and sold? They're never going to sell another one, they enjoy the thrill of the hunt, the uniqueness, etc..." But then I put myself in their position and I kind of saw things in a new light.

If I'd come up with something like "The Ancient Light", and someone started selling copies tomorrow, I might be a little irked if you hadn't cleared it with me beforehand. But you never know, rhd is probably not planning on pumping out "Ancient Lights" any time soon, so he might be OK with you doing it if you give him credit on being the first. (Just using that build as an example.)

It's kind of a respect thing... Are you required to clear the use of a host with someone who used it in a build? Nope. But why not do it out of respect for the guy that did it first? They might even give you some pointers on the build. It is a community after all.

At the very least I would say strive to make your builds unique in some way. Take solace in the fact that you can absolutely add or modify on things that have been done before you (pretty much every innovation or design in existence is a derivative work of someone who came before them), but make your design count. Make yours have its own impact on people and you will be a success in your own right.

rhd said:

You're right. Nobody should be able to claim everything. But that doesn't happen.

A dozen "signature" builds, when there are many thousands of flashlights available (thousands of which are nice) doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

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Sure, but I said dozens. :yh:

But what we've discussed in this thread, at least to my mind, is not about hard and fast, technical, intellectual property law. It's not even about explicit forum-mandated intellectual property rules. In my mind, it's about relationships. Relationships with other forum members, and the community in general. It's about keeping the peace, having friends, and gaining the respect of other people that are trying to make a go of the hobby we all love.

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Yeah, that is where it gets interesting. I have a member telling me it is about RESPECT over and over again, but what that means is that I am supposed to respect that member. It doesn't seem to be a two way street. Apparently in that member's way of thinking, the only way I can earn respect is not to build anything that has already been built by him/her.

So far, I don't think there is any way I will ever "earn" that person's respect. It seems useless to try at this point. We just have very different ways of viewing things.

I feel sure that if you and I ran into this problem we could resolve it easily.

MY TAKE is that the more reasonable attitude would be to contact the member and say, "Hey, I noticed that you are selling a build that I consider to be one of my signature builds. I understand you have some time and money tied up in this, so go ahead and sell it, but I'd prefer that you not continue to sell this host as I consider it my own signature build. I realize that I have no legal standing to ask this of you, but I ask it as a favor.

But apparently there are those that feel like they are instantly owed respect by anyone who is new here and that they own certain hosts and tough luck to you pal. You'll just have to eat that host(s) because they are mine. And you should do this out of respect for me.

I don't really get that.

Sure, if you want to sell an "Ancient Light" clone of my 445nm build in an Everready host from 1905, I couldn't stop you. You might even raise some really logical arguments for why it was technically an okay thing to do. But you'd bug me in the process, and probably not impress anyone that was looking at your builds and trying to get a sense for your own level of originality and creativity.

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Ok, but let's say three months from now a new guy comes on the forum, asks a lot of questions, buys some drivers and diodes and builds that host. He has no idea that you built it before. Would you ask him to take it down and eat the cost of the host, and if he didn't he would have no respect on the forum or would you explain the situation and ask him to not do anymore?

It's funny, I actually DON'T particularly believe in intellectual property rules as they are presently implemented in most of the west. I think it's a flawed system. Monopolies are given out to people who don't actually invent or produce the items they're claiming protection over. Patent trolls extort actual innovators. The objectives of copyright protection are obsolete (like "enabling and fostering creativity" - we don't need protection to do that in 2012 - almost everyone has access to the tools of creation). For that matter, we're not even letting copyright expire anymore, thanks to Disney's lawyers pressing for term extensions every time Mickey Mouse is about to go public domain.

Long story short, I'm NOT a fan of intellectual property rules as they are today. I think they are largely broken.

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I moved this to the bottom since it is a bit of a tangent. I actually agree with you here, I think. I believe current ip laws are ridiculous. But I do agree that there should be REASONABLE ip laws. Right now, the person with the most money usually wins.

Oddly I don't have a problem with Disney keeping ownership of Mickey though!

I'll thow my 2 cents in this. If you are building hosts in a flashlight that anyone can buy, there should be no expectation of exclusivity. I just don't understand why anyone would be upset about someone else selling kits / builds in the same host. If someone can do it cheaper with as good or better quality, they should.

If you are spending time actually making a custom host from scratch (very few members do that) you have every right to be upset. I would imagine that should this happen the forum would "take care of it's own" so to speak.

:shrug: Maybe I would feel different if I was involved in selling lasers I built.

I guess tsteele, you will just have to start building eghemus custom hosts and custom hosts only so your not hurting anybody LOL

The other thing to be said is, we need more commonly available hosts WITH heatsinks now don't we? I feel there is a lack of host + heatsink combo's to be bought around here anymore. It's all c6's or variations of it, Stainless steel, c3, etc.... We need somebody to sell more variety of hosts+ heatsinks (that nobody has ever used before as not to hurt feelings)


And also, I think to take it down to " I guess it depends on what kind of person you are" haha come on now, are we talking about laser hosts or stabbing somebody? I don't think somebody who copied another members "one of a kind" host means they are a bad person. That's a little drastic.

tsteele93 said:

Yeah, that is where it gets interesting. I have a member telling me it is about RESPECT over and over again, but what that means is that I am supposed to respect that member. It doesn't seem to be a two way street. Apparently in that member's way of thinking, the only way I can earn respect is not to build anything that has already been built by him/her.

So far, I don't think there is any way I will ever "earn" that person's respect. It seems useless to try at this point. We just have very different ways of viewing things.

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Don't be so sure of that. I can think of a few people on this forum that I've had really big disagreements with, where I'm sure there was ZERO respect left in either direction, that are now good friends that I collaborate with on projects. It takes time to build up (or repair) respect in any setting. Most people on this forum, believe it or not, ARE pretty open to re-evaluating their initial impressions of others.

tsteele93 said:

MY TAKE is that the more reasonable attitude would be to contact the member and say, "Hey, I noticed that you are selling a build that I consider to be one of my signature builds. I understand you have some time and money tied up in this, so go ahead and sell it, but I'd prefer that you not continue to sell this host as I consider it my own signature build. I realize that I have no legal standing to ask this of you, but I ask it as a favor.

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I think the appropriate way to approach this, would be for the second builder to make the request of the first. "Hey, I've ended up tying up some money in this host here. I didn't realize that this was one of your well known builds ahead of time, I missed it. Now I've got $100 invested in this host of yours. I'm wondering if you'd be okay with me selling this build, as a one-time thing, and in a private sale via PM (not a new thread). If you have plans to do something else with this build style and would prefer that I not sell one, then would you have any interest in buying the host from me at cost, so that you can use it, since I won't have any use for it myself?"

They may just be cool with it. They may not. Point is, I always would ask, and then live with the response. I would also add that sometimes you have to read between the lines. Sometimes someone may not outright say "no", but you may get the sense that they're just being nice, and would really feel a bit upset if their build was duplicated. I'm sensitive to stuff like that - and wouldn't go forward - even absent an explicit "no".

tsteele93 said:

Ok, but let's say three months from now a new guy comes on the forum, asks a lot of questions, buys some drivers and diodes and builds that host. He has no idea that you built it before. Would you ask him to take it down and eat the cost of the host, and if he didn't he would have no respect on the forum or would you explain the situation and ask him to not do anymore?

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Nope, that wouldn't bother me. I've even helped some people figure out how to make Ancient Lights for themselves. I collaborated with Moh to help another member here create his own Ancient Ligh heatsink design, and then I even ended up assembling it for him. They really wanted one, and that was 100% cool with me. This wasn't another "vet" per se, but it was a member who I had always saw contributing positively to the forum. So I was completely cool with not only giving it my blessing, but also helping.

However, if your scenario was a bit different, and that "new guy" showed up on the forum and starting selling Ancient Light copies, then yes - I'd definitely ask them to stop selling it.

- Well, I'm Canadian, so I'd probably send a polite letter through a 3rd party, saying:

"Eh friend. I can't help but notice that you may have, perhaps, just a little bit, created a design (I'm sure accidentaly) that quite largely resembles the creation in one of my build threads (that I know you didn't see first, which is probably somehow my fault). Would you be at all troubled to discontinue your sales of that (unintentionally) similar creation. Let me send you some maple syrup and beaver tails to compensate you for your time. My apologies if this message has caught you during the dinner hour. Tally-ho."

jakeGT said:

I guess tsteele, you will just have to start building eghemus custom hosts and custom hosts only so your not hurting anybody LOL

The other thing to be said is, we need more commonly available hosts WITH heatsinks now don't we? I feel there is a lack of host + heatsink combo's to be bought around here anymore. It's all c6's or variations of it, Stainless steel, c3, etc.... We need somebody to sell more variety of hosts+ heatsinks (that nobody has ever used before as not to hurt feelings)


And also, I think to take it down to " I guess it depends on what kind of person you are" haha come on now, are we talking about laser hosts or stabbing somebody? I don't think somebody who copied another members "one of a kind" host means they are a bad person. That's a little drastic.

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Who said 'bad person'?

'What kind of a person you are' means just that...

Example: Respectful type of person... Or, do they not care what the other seller thinks, etc...

rhd said:

- Well, I'm Canadian, so I'd probably send a polite letter through a 3rd party, saying:

"Eh friend. I can't help but notice that you may have, perhaps, just a little bit, created a design (I'm sure accidentaly) that quite largely resembles the creation in one of my build threads (that I know you didn't see first, which is probably somehow my fault). Would you be at all troubled to discontinue your sales of that (unintentionally) similar creation. Let me send you some maple syrup and beaver tails to compensate you for your time. My apologies if this message has caught you during the dinner hour. Tally-ho."

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Ok, I just sprayed soft drink out of my nose on to my screen! And I wasn't even drinking a soft drink.

Best post in the thread!

:crackup:

jayrob said:

Who said 'bad person'?

'What kind of a person you are' means just that...

Example: Respectful type of person... Or, do they not care what the other seller thinks, etc...

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That is the general feeling I have been gtting out of this whole thread. Sorry, but what are people to do down the line after buying a saik kit from you and building it? They use it a couple months and sell it. Would you be upset with that person for selling a kit they got from you? I wanted to buy a few saik heatsinks from you if at all possible. But my plan was to use those in some high powered 445 builds to sell on the forum. Is that bad juju?

The saik was introduced by DTR, originally sold by Moh, now one of your kits you offer exclusively, Nobody else sells them.


EDIT2: I forgot to mention I don't ever plan on doing anything listed in this thread such as copying another members hosts. I have the utmost respect for mr rhd, and lazeerer ( I name them because they are the 2 we are obviously talking about in this thread, not many other people finding and selling a unique host every day). I just don't want it to get to where person 1 can only sell such and such, person 2 can only sell such an such, and person 3 can only sell such an such etc. etc.
Cause we really are modifying existing flashlights, we didn't design these hosts ourselves. (once again I am not saying a single negative thing to anybody regarding this thread)

I haven't seen many issues regarding this anyways, so it seems it's not an often occurrence.

Well, I'm going to settle on this. I'll eat the host(s) and use them for gifts. But going forward, I don't see how it is always possible to avoid this situation and if it is an honest mistake I may say, "Sorry, I'm selling that one but I won't sell any more."

If I think the person is hogging builds, I may say, "Sorry, you seem to claim a LOT of signature builds and I'm going to agree to disagree here."

Mostly I will try to err on the side of politeness, but I may step on toes from time to time.

I will NEVER go stalking a builder's lasers and try to copy them. But I'm not going to eat every host I buy that turns out to be someone else's signature build.

Jayrob is easy to avoid, because he has his kits in a single location. I still think it would be ok to build one yourself of you wanted and sell it, but it would be rude to start making lots of his stuff.

But if you can so thoroughly upset someone over a single build that happens to be their favorite host (or one of their favorite couple of dozen hosts!) then perhaps that person is too sensitive or not easily made happy.

I also think it really is a cultural / ideological thing. I am very "free for all" and "let the buyer decide" where as others are more about the "I built it first" attitude.

As I said before, any host I build is fair game. I will give the link to the host and my blessing.

I will also try to respect the builders who lay claim to builds where reasonable in my opinion. If anyone feels that isn't respectable then I can live with their judgement on that.

I believe this forum is about sharing. RHD is one of the people that led me to feel that way. Initially I felt the desire to "keep a cool host secret" but his attitude with the Ben boost driver and some of his hosts made me feel like this is a forum for sharing, not hoarding.

I've been staying on the sidelines in this discussion, but feel some things are being misinterpreted.

tsteele93 said:

Yeah, that is where it gets interesting. I have a member telling me it is about RESPECT over and over again, but what that means is that I am supposed to respect that member. It doesn't seem to be a two way street. Apparently in that member's way of thinking, the only way I can earn respect is not to build anything that has already been built by him/her.

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Yes. Exactly. No one is saying you can't make the lasers, but if you intend to resell for profit, than yes, don't build in the same hosts.

Also no one would object to you greatly improving on a host in some way. There are builds in common between some great builders out there, but there is something unique to them, despite using a completely common host.

There are SO MANY hosts out there, and as you discovered it is difficult to find the right one. So can't you see where a person might feel irked if after they make a build, someone flat out copies them?

Again it all depends on the end goal. If your end goal is to sell in quantity and for profit, you need to find unique builds.

If your goal is to just build for your own private collection that's a different story.

tsteele93 said:

So far, I don't think there is any way I will ever "earn" that person's respect. It seems useless to try at this point. We just have very different ways of viewing things.

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You'd be surprised. He's one of the nicest and most caring people I have ever had the pleasure of working with.

Thing is he puts in MASSIVE amounts of effort into his work where lasers are concerned, so when someone else comes along, and wants to copy him... yeah he takes it personally.

Though again, I could be wrong, but I bet he would have no problem with you just building for a personal collection.

tsteele93 said:

MY TAKE is that the more reasonable attitude would be to contact the member and say, "Hey, I noticed that you are selling a build that I consider to be one of my signature builds. I understand you have some time and money tied up in this, so go ahead and sell it, but I'd prefer that you not continue to sell this host as I consider it my own signature build. I realize that I have no legal standing to ask this of you, but I ask it as a favor.

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So your take is that you made an investment, without doing the proper legwork, and now because of it, the other guys need to bend in how they approach things?

See if you can return the flashlights, or just resell them at cost if it's a matter of just recouping losses instead. You would avoid the drama that way.

tsteele93 said:

But apparently there are those that feel like they are instantly owed respect by anyone who is new here and that they own certain hosts and tough luck to you pal. You'll just have to eat that host(s) because they are mine. And you should do this out of respect for me.

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Yes they are owed respect. YOU are building based on THEIR work and research, so yes, in my eyes that earns them a measure of respect.

In so far as hosts are concerned, it isn't about "ownership" but rather just courtesy, and the reason being is that this is a hobby.

tsteele93 said:

Ok, but let's say three months from now a new guy comes on the forum, asks a lot of questions, buys some drivers and diodes and builds that host. He has no idea that you built it before. Would you ask him to take it down and eat the cost of the host, and if he didn't he would have no respect on the forum or would you explain the situation and ask him to not do anymore?

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Personally I would ask that you sell the one laser in question privately.

In this case it seems like you want to sell a bunch of lasers, all using the same host and design as that other person.

tsteele93 said:

Oddly I don't have a problem with Disney keeping ownership of Mickey though!

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I do have a problem with it. The guy who came up with Mickey is long dead! Mickey should have passed into the public domain decades ago, but because that isn't happening, NOTHING is entering the public domain.

Strands of genetic code common to all human beings are being copyrighted.

Right now we have movie copyright trolls, who practice "speculative invoicing" if the practice continues, soon we'll have genetic copyrights trolls. Just imagine where that leads us.

EDIT: Looks like rhd beat me to most of what I wanted to say

jakeGT said:

That is the general feeling I have been gtting out of this whole thread. Sorry, but what are people to do down the line after buying a saik kit from you and building it? They use it a couple months and sell it. Would you be upset with that person for selling a kit they got from you? I wanted to buy a few saik heatsinks from you if at all possible. But my plan was to use those in some high powered 445 builds to sell on the forum. Is that bad juju?

The saik was introduced by DTR, originally sold by Moh, now one of your kits you offer exclusively, Nobody else sells them.


EDIT2: I forgot to mention I don't ever plan on doing anything listed in this thread such as copying another members hosts. I have the utmost respect for mr rhd, and lazeerer ( I name them because they are the 2 we are obviously talking about in this thread, not many other people finding and selling a unique host every day). I just don't want it to get to where person 1 can only sell such and such, person 2 can only sell such an such, and person 3 can only sell such an such etc. etc.
Cause we really are modifying existing flashlights, we didn't design these hosts ourselves. (once again I am not saying a single negative thing to anybody regarding this thread)

I haven't seen many issues regarding this anyways, so it seems it's not an often occurrence.

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Of course if you got a kit from a seller, there could be no possible objections of you selling it. You got it from him!

About the Saik. This is a little different situation...

Moh announced that he was out of business, and was not going to be selling kits. It was then, that I had started offering the Saik kit. When it was no longer being offered.

And also, I knew for a fact, that Moh would not have a problem with me selling a kit that he was no longer offering...

Then Moh brought it back. If he came to me and asked me to stop offering it. I certainly would remove it from what I offer.

Of course, I would also ask him for the 'mutual respect' to be returned...

jayrob said:

Who said 'bad person'?

'What kind of a person you are' means just that...

Example: Respectful type of person... Or, do they not care what the other seller thinks, etc...

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You can be respectful and care what the other person thinks, but (in your opinion) decide that the other person is being unreasonable and choose not to abide by their request.

I have an immense amount of respect for you. I've even looked through your albums and admired your bikes and your general attitude of attacking life and living it to the fullest! (At least your album appears that way!)

But that doesn't mean that I might not agree with you on one aspect of the forum at some time or another and that shouldn't make me an outcast.

I would hope that there is room for disagreements without long held grudges unless someone has a pattern of poor etiquette or does something unforgivable.

There are at least two people in this thread that have pissed me off immensely in other threads that are agreeing with me now. I love that about forums. I love to argue IDEAS not argue with people.

Anyway, I will freely admit that I am a "question authority" type person. I give respect to those that I think deserve it and I try to be polite to everyone, even those who I don't think deserve respect. I also try to be open minded.

That is why I came here to try and get a reading on the situation.

In PM, I told the person that I will eat these hosts. Even though I think the polite thing on his end would be to say, "hey, go ahead and sell those but I'd appreciate it if you didn't order more," I will abide with his request.

But there is a point where that stifles innovation. Who wants to order hosts, try and come up with a good way to build them and then gamble on whether someone claimes it first?

I'm not talking about stalking someone's builds either, I just mean honest overlap of hosts.

In the future I will handle it on a claim by claim basis. I'll be polite and if I'm really stepping on toes I'll probably not sell more than I have initially purchased. But I'm not going to eat hosts just because someone else thinks it is theirs.