Seeking Advice from experinced Fourm sellers and buyers

DTR · May 4, 2012

I have had two credit card charge backs with paypal. I gave them the tracking info and it did take about a month but I won both cases. Paypal worked the dispute for me. Both were eBay customers by the way. Probably kids that used their parents card without permission.

This is not to put you down but you are looking at the paypal vs Alert pay thing incorrectly.

It is not about what Paypal or Alertpay requires. It is about who is responsible for "delivery". Not shipping "delivery".

With paypal you the seller are responsible for "delivery" of the item with Alertpay delivery is the responsibility of the buyer apparently from what I am hearing.

You should really be explaining it to your costumes like that. It is a more accurate and full disclosure that they are responsible if the package does not make it.

Tell them with paypal I am responsible to make sure it arrives to you and with aleartpay you are responsible that it makes it to you. If you say it like that which is what it is they will be able to make a more educated decision on weather they want to pay for the tracked shipping or not.

I ship stuff all the time with first class not tracked mail. So paypal does not require that I use tracked shipping. I will just be responsibe if the item does not arrive.:beer:

EDIT also if you explain it to your customers that if they don't want to pay for the tracked shipping and they choose the Alertpay option which means if the item does not arrive that is their problem since they did not want to pay for tracked shipping it probably would not be a problem offering it but just saying that paypal requires tracking and alertpay does not and not explaining the rest can seem somewhat deceptive. Not that that was your intention but the reason some are seeing it that way.

lazeerer · May 5, 2012

RyanElectro said:
Alright, I feel you explained everything really well here, you've put a smile on my face this time.

Okay so.. some things I'd like to say:

1) Agreed that Lazeerer is exceptionally skillful and has all the right to charge those prices. And by no means am I saying I'm as skillful as him. Though, it's worth to add that I believe the stainless steel host he used in his 2.7W build was under $46.99 (which was how much the SL-SS costs). But I heed your advice, and you're right about thinking about the community a bit more. I have dropped my price to $325 with all accessories or $300 just the laser.

2) Yeah, honestly I'm sorry if I ever came off arrogant. Sometimes I kind of, "fight for who's right" if I really feel I'm right. And recently, I've just felt so pushed to the edge that a bit of inferior complex kicked in and I started flaunting -- it did me nothing but more harm. I apologize for this. And in regards to the "Pro shop", yeah I understand, I was naive. I honestly merely used the phrase "Pro Shop" not to say I'm professional, but rather like a custom shop. Like your local sports "Pro Shop" stringer, the stringer isn't a pro, but you can customize your racquet like a pro. It's like a custom-shop type of deal, Pro Shop, twas what I meant. But yeah it's the wrong term and I shouldn't label it so.

3) I can imagine other hobbyists feeling a bit, say.. corny about the marketing. I try to keep it really noob friendly, honestly all my marketing is geared to noobs in mind (high-powered lens instead of G-2 lens, etc.). Because my aim is to attract new comers, kind of like Wicked Lasers, but w/o the garbage, just straight true output lasers at much lower prices. I admit the advertising was a bit corny, I'll try to mature it a bit more but please bare with me as I still aim to stay noob-friendly.

Good to hear from you Wolfy.

Ryan

Slight Correction.

The Stainless steel host is $50 + 40$ in shipping DHL. =$90 Or $85 if i went with EMS.

Then I have to make the Heatsink Since my Host does not come with one like the stainless steel host you get for your total $47... So the Host alone cost more then both your host and heatsink together.

So your Looking at ~$130 Just for the Host and Heatsink and about 3 hours of my time for making this Heatsink.

My Heatsinks are also Different then anyone else does. I wont go into detail but i make my heatsink to hold the Module different then how the standard heatsink is. AKA More custom work which makes my laser heatsinks work better and perform better.

Then you have the focus adapter too.... that would be $15 and ~1 hour of my time.

So I would say play it safe and call it $145.

So ~$145 is what that stainless steel build runs JUST for host and adapter/Heatsink.

People tend to over look that.

There Also:

Accessories
Warranty which is 1 year fully covered on me Then Free labor for 1 year after that...
I also Cover Lost Packages and Confiscation and will replace the laser.

Also as a Side Note I make everything in my shop. I dont source out for parts. Other then the obvious like host and diode i make everything else myself.

Also What people also miss is Not all my laser sell for the asking price.

I can tell you the Steel Ice build you are speaking of sold for less then the asking price.

Also "I know alot of Also's" My Laser are Normal ~200mW over spec.

SO I may list it at 2.4W but you might be getting a 2.6W laser.

Cheers:beer:

RyanElectro · May 5, 2012

DTR said:
I have had two credit card charge backs with paypal. I gave them the tracking info and it did take about a month but I won both cases. Paypal worked the dispute for me. Both were eBay customers by the way. Probably kids that used their parents card without permission.

This is not to put you down but you are looking at the paypal vs Alert pay thing incorrectly.

It is not about what Paypal or Alertpay requires. It is about who is responsible for "delivery". Not shipping "delivery".

With paypal you the seller are responsible for "delivery" of the item with Alertpay delivery is the responsibility of the buyer.

You should really be explaining it to your costumes like that. It is a more accurate and full disclosure that they are responsible if the package does not make it.

Tell them with paypal I am responsible to make sure it arrives to you and with aleartpay you are responsible that it makes it to you. If you say it like that which is what it is they will be able to make a more educated decision on weather they want to pay for the tracked shipping or not.

I ship stuff all the time with first class not tracked mail. So paypal does not require that I use tracked shipping. I will just be responsibe if the item does not arrive.:beer:

I'm sure you were protected by Seller Protection and your transactions were probably under $250 USD or $325 CAD (as in my case), or you'll have to use signature confirmation with ur shipping or you'll lose the case (depending what the dispute was actually, if it was a non-receipt, then yeah). All transactions must have tracking to qualify for SP, but those above $250 USD needs additional signature confirmation (which is hugely expensive to countries outside CAN/US) or you won't qualify for Seller Protection.

It's not true that only the buyer is responsible for delivery using Alertpay. Honestly, I don't know everything about Alertpay neither have I ever used it, but I'm aware I do need to provide:

Proof of postage, delivery, refund and/or replaced product.
Copy of the original item description.
Return/Refund Policy applicable to the customer at the time of purchase.
Agreements signed by the customer prior to purchase.

The onus is also on the seller. It's more fair with AP in that it's not so by-the-book, they accept all evidence and weigh it out, rather by the by-the-book, my-rules-only approach of Paypal.

The issue is that Paypal is too strict on its rules regarding international delivery outside of CAN/US that requires one to pay $67+ for a shipping option for you to be covered SP. Whereas, Alertpay still covers SP regardless of signature confirmation, as long as I provide as much evidence as possible <-- I like this approach better. If it was my fault, I can still lose the dispute.

I don't know man, at the end of the day, I don't want to get major screwed over from multiple buyers and out hundreds of dollars. I hear you guys out tho and I will do my best to protect buyers. I just can't take too much of a risk myself, that's all.

Ryan

DTR · May 5, 2012

RyanElectro said:
I'm sure you were protected by Seller Protection and your transactions were probably under $250 USD or $325 CAD (as in my case)

One was an international payment for over $500. I had USPS Express Mail with delivery confirmation and a copy of the original shipping label in PDF format. I am not sure why I won as it was not signature confirmation but I did.

It was an unauthorized charge case not an item not as described but I was not given any of the details.

The other was just a $10 claim on a glass lens for a US customer.

RyanElectro said:
It's not true that only the buyer is responsible for delivery using Alertpay. Honestly, I don't know everything about Alertpay neither have I ever used it, but I'm aware I do need to provide:
Ryan

That is what I don't understand. Either you or the buyer will be responsible if the package does not arrive. Alertpay is not going to eat anything. So which is it?

Like I said it would be ok if it is on them with the service as long as it is spelled out when you offer it to them that it is possible they will be out the money. I have had customers opt for cheap shipping on items I was not comfortable sending with untracked shipping and I made them pay as gift.

I told them it means if it does not arrive it is on them. I don't feel there is any problem with that as long as they agree to it. I also try the best I can to talk them out of it. A gift payment can't be sent with a credit card either so there won't be any credit card charge backs.

RyanElectro · May 5, 2012

DTR said:
One was an international payment for over $500. I had USPS Express Mail with delivery confirmation and a copy of the original shipping label in PDF format. I am not sure why I won as it was not signature confirmation but I did.

It was an unauthorized charge case not an item not as described but I was not given any of the details.

The other was just a $10 claim on a glass lens for a US customer.

That is what I don't understand. Either you or the buyer will be responsible if the package does not arrive. Alertpay is not going to eat anything. So which is it?

Like I said it would be ok if it is on them with the service as long as it is spelled out when you offer it to them that it is possible they will be out the money. I have had customers opt for cheap shipping on items I was not comfortable sending with untracked shipping and I made them pay as gift.

I told them it means if it does not arrive it is on them. I don't feel there is any problem with that as long as they agree to it. I also try the best I can to talk them out of it. A gift payment can't be sent with a credit card either so there won't be any credit card charge backs.

Over here, XpressPost comes with signature confirmation included, not sure about there.

There is a few ways the buyer can get both the money and the laser. In a dispute case, if you didn't follow Paypal protocol (tracking on all orders or tracking + sig confirm on >$250 USD), then you'll be out both the delivered item and the money, which will be reversed back to the buyer. In this case, Paypal/alertpay loses nothing. We do.

Another case: if the buyer chargesback with his CC and wins (almost all the time), and you followed Paypal protocol in every aspect, then Paypal will cover your loss for you. That's Seller Protection.

For AP, the reason why I like them is that you don't have to follow certain die-hard requirements or you'll be disqualified from SP. They consider all other evidence and proof of shipment like pictures, etc. Paypal doesn't care about that at all =/

rpaloalto · May 5, 2012

Ryan, can I ask why are you so concerned about someone doing a charge back against you?
This is something that really bothers you. Even in your first thread the ''pro shop thread'' you made it clear that you even spent money on legal advice to C.Y.A..
I'm just curious thats all. Have you done online business before and got burned or something in the past?

RyanElectro · May 5, 2012

rpaloalto said:
Ryan, can I ask why are you so concerned about someone doing a charge back against you?
This is something that really bothers you. Even in your first thread the ''pro shop thread'' you made it clear that you even spent money on legal advice to C.Y.A..
I'm just curious thats all. Have you done online business before and got burned or something the past?

Yes, can you tell? gee.. =/ Sometime last year, just when I was starting college, I got screwed over in a transaction by Paypal (tbh, not really PP's fault, it's the CC companies that have all the say) in the amount of about $600. The buyer used that scam tactic against me, this was my first and last experience with the loophole and I honestly never want to go through that again. I really don't want to divulge more info on how to do it, but I'm sure some of you guys are starting to see how it can be done.

Being $600 short when you have to pay $17,000 a year for college, half of it from your own pocket, the rest in gov't student debt, put a humongous strain on me and was one of the most stressful moments of my life.

The worst thing is, the scam is still possible today and it's not something that can be solved anytime soon. Lots of Chinese sellers get scammed this way actually, that's why if you noticed more and more Chinese sellers are opting for tracked shipping in recent years, even with small orders.

I'm almost certain Modwerx, Moh, clif and other sellers on here have experienced this scam, especially if they used First Class Intl shipping options. That's why most sellers will only use Priority when shipping Internationally. The buyer will receive the product and then file a chargeback non-receipt. Paypal gets stuck with a huge chargeback bill and will either 1) reverse the payment back to the buyer + charge you the chargeback fee if you didn't follow Paypal Protocol, which if u used a non-tracking option like 1st First Intl, you didn't. 2) Cover your loss if you followed PP protocol (every aspect must be covered by-the-book).

daguin · May 5, 2012

RyanElectro said:
I never not done a single transaction with AP yet, so I'm not sure what happens after this or that. All I knew was that my account had free transactions, I didn't know it will switch over after that $400 a month. If so, that's fine, so it'll be good for one transaction then I guess.

Buyer can dispute if he wants to on AlertPay, so if there's any problem and have sufficient evidence to prove it, he can get a refund via dispute process (which should never be the case as buyers should contact me first). One difference with AP is that I can provide other evidence of proof of delivery where Paypal will ONLY accept Tracking + Signature confirmation, which is too expensive to New Zealand and will not budge on this whatsoever. So IF the seller decides to take the risk and allow the international buyer to go for a cheaper shipping option, and ship the product with International Air: Tracking but no signature confirmation... and the item was delivered successfully (even if it says it on tracking), the buyer can still claim non-receipt and win because there wasn't any signature confirmation. A rule that basically hints that a fellow family member can steal your mail.. lol. So he keeps the laser AND gets back the money.

The worst is charge-backs. Credit card companies always win chargebacks. Paypal has almost no say-power in CC disputes. If buyer charges back with his CC, Paypal/Alertpay will dispute on my behalf with evidence I provide. 90% of the time, the CC company will win, unless rock solid, undeniable mountains of proof is given (srsly). If I have Seller Protection, Paypal/Alertpay will cover my chargeback loss (I already shipped the item, but buyer does not have it, so I can't get it back). If I don't have Seller Protection, I'm out the laser AND the cash. This is something I cannot risk and can easily happen to all sellers.

I can protect CAN/US buyers with only Paypal options. This is the best I can do, I'm sorry. But other international buyers will have to go through another payment processor where $67 shipping isnt required. Sad how complicated online transactions have to be now-a-days. Only exception: if someone trusted buys from me, then depending on how trustworthy he is, I'd allow him to pay via Paypal, so I'm reassured he won't screw me over and chargeback to lose both cash and laser. Hopefully this is the case.

I'm just trying to protect myself here, not trying to profit by using Alertpay. Come on, I'm not like that dave. You know this.

I tried not to divulge too much about how to perform the buyer chargeback scam but I'm sure some of you can easily figure it out. Daguin if you need any more explanation, I'll happily PM it to you, but I don't think it's appropriate for me to say every detail of the process in public.

Here's one of the reasons that people view you as arrogant

Many members here (including myself) have been selling online here and via other venues for many years.
Then you post something like the above "offering" to help me/us understand how charge back scams work.
I was selling stuff online and dealing with charge backs while you were still in elementary school

So, is it your position then that you were just very naive?
You didn't explain it to your customer that way
You didn't answer the questions herein that way

Even though you have no idea what the reality is, you state things like you have the "inside track" to truth

Step back
Research your market and your business model
Learn about the tools available to you
Then be up front with your customers about that information

If you want to market to Noobs and neophytes alone, build a website and hype it up like WL
If you want to market here, you will be forced to operate above ground and openly.
If you mess up, someone here WILL call you on it.
If we decide the "mistake" was intentional, the only recourse we have is a ban

Sometimes you just have to "give up" certain parts of the world because of the cost
I have only sold one argon laser to an Australian customer since the shipping skyrocketed
Few people are willing to spend an extra $150 just for shipping

However, they do have the choice
I don't try to "force" the decision in one way or the other (as you appeared to be doing with this transaction)

Peace,
dave

RyanElectro · May 5, 2012

daguin said:
Here's one of the reasons that people view you as arrogant

Many members here (including myself) have been selling online here and via other venues for many years.
Then you post something like the above "offering" to help me/us understand how charge back scams work.
I was selling stuff online and dealing with charge backs while you were still in elementary school

So, is it your position then that you were just very naive?
You didn't explain it to your customer that way
You didn't answer the questions herein that way

Even though you have no idea what the reality is, you state things like you have the "inside track" to truth

Step back
Research your market and your business model
Learn about the tools available to you
Then be up front with your customers about that information

If you want to market to Noobs and neophytes alone, build a website and hype it up like WL
If you want to market here, you will be forced to operate above ground and openly.
If you mess up, someone here WILL call you on it.
If we decide the "mistake" was intentional, the only recourse we have is a ban

Sometimes you just have to "give up" certain parts of the world because of the cost
I have only sold one argon laser to an Australian customer since the shipping skyrocketed
Few people are willing to spend an extra $150 just for shipping

However, they do have the choice
I don't try to "force" the decision in one way or the other (as you appeared to be doing with this transaction)

Peace,
dave

I know you guys have been selling for many years, but why do you question me as if you know little about the chargeback scam? I definitely don't know everything man. Please, please bare with me. I often am viewed as arrogant but I DON'T MEAN TO in any way possible! Really I don't at all. What I say is based on what I know that's all. Take it with a grain of salt okay?

I explained to the customer that he can opt for Alertpay if he chooses. I did not force him to use Alertpay by any means. In fact, I suggested he can use Paypal with Xpresspost, if he's willing to pay that $67 shipping.

Please stop looking at me with such sharp eyes, I'm not a bad guy and I never "forced" anyone, why do you use such words?

I gave the customer his choices, and he was free to choose whatever he's comfortable with. I'm sure obsidian can pitch in on this.

Anyway, I hear you out dave. All suggestions have been noted, and I will do what I can to provide the best quality service. Alertpay will still be an option for international buyers if they choose. Please note that I will not say that they'll be out for their money if they use AP, because that's not true, they can win the dispute too. Neither will I educate them about the uses of AP, that's their responsibility. But I will do my best to accommodate everybody's needs.

May our arrows fly straight and our aim be true!
Ryan

rpaloalto · May 5, 2012

I'm telling you this to help you Ryan. Your on everyone's radar right now.
If you were to open another sale thread tomorrow, or even next week this same shit is going to follow you.

Maybe you should give up selling anything for a while?
Close up shop, humble your self, and contribute to the forum for a few months. Just make some lasers for your self or your friends.

Then in a few months you can give this whole selling lasers thing a try again.
Just take it slow at first. As a member and not a pro shop sell one or two lasers at just above cost. Don't use stupid services or make request that other sellers don't. Then once you get a few sales under your belt, you can charge more or open a build service or what ever. Just make sure you stay honest, don't sell poorly made shit. And most of all take care of your customers before and after a sale. Then maybe you wont be under the microscope so much.

00Giorge · May 5, 2012

I agree with rpaloalto, take it slow and if you are going to sell do it at a reasonable price, not high prices. Good reviews of a few of your lasers will be the best advertising you can get, but if you get bad reviews it will kill any business you ever had a chance of getting.

RyanElectro · May 5, 2012

True say. I have already bought all the stuff for my next set of builds. I want to continue to sell builds.

I definitely won't do a build service thread... DTR was right about this: customers want their builds fast and not wait 3 weeks. Pre-builds is the way to go.

But thanks for your advice guys... I appreciate it, really. You make me a better man and business with every step.

Someone on here actually received my build for him yesterday, hopefully he'll be able to do a review, I built him a laser with a pretty efficient diode. 1.35A outputting 1.6W with a 3-element! aint that awesome

But yeah, hopefully he'll post a review about it soon

I like it much better when you guys are nice about things you know, light-hearted and everything, rather than questioning me like an interrogation.

I like that things are better now. Let's just leave what's in the past, the past. The future will only get better!

DTR · May 5, 2012

RyanElectro said:
Another case: if the buyer chargesback with his CC and wins (almost all the time), and you followed Paypal protocol in every aspect, then Paypal will cover your loss for you. That's Seller Protection.

When I talked with them about the credit card chargback's they told me either we as in me and paypal wins and the credit card reinstates the payment or I as in me eats it. Regardless of if I followed the all the requirements. They just said if you follow the requirements it will give them evidence to fight the chargback. But in the end if we loose Paypal will never under any circumstance cover anything. At lest this is the point I went back and fourth with them many rounds on while waiting. I felt it was their responsibility to make sure the user belonged to the credit card being used and should eat it. They said they would not.

RyanElectro said:
They consider all other evidence and proof of shipment like pictures, etc. Paypal doesn't care about that at all =/

I know there are lots of ways people can try and scam you but what I am referring to here is if you ship the item and can show proof the item was actually shipped then the buyer is out if the item is lost and does not arrive. Correct? This seems to be the question that is being danced around with Alertpay. Who eats it? The answer is one word "buyer" or "seller" not a long explanation of their requirements.

RyanElectro said:
I definitely won't do a build service thread... DTR was right about this: customers want their builds fast and not wait 3 weeks. Pre-builds is the way to go.

Yep noting makes your life easy and your customers happy than when they pay for an item and it shows up in a few days.:beer:

daguin · May 5, 2012

RyanElectro said:
I like it much better when you guys are nice about things you know, light-hearted and everything, rather than questioning me like an interrogation. I like that things are better now. Let's just leave what's in the past, the past. The future will only get better!

This is the last time I'm going to go over this ground

You keep telling us how you would like us to act

It is NOT the market's job to adapt to you

The market gets NOTHING from you that we don't already have

What you "like" is about as irrelevant as it can be

It is YOUR job to adapt to the market

You are the one that stands to profit from that adaptation

This is how this market works

Adapt to it or suffer its slings and arrows (or move to a different market)

Peace,
dave

RyanElectro · May 5, 2012

DTR said:
When I talked with them about the credit card chargback's they told me either we as in me and paypal wins and the credit card reinstates the payment or I as in me eats it. Regardless of if I followed the all the requirements. They just said if you follow the requirements it will give them evidence to fight the chargback. But in the end if we loose Paypal will never under any circumstance cover anything. At lest this is the point I went back and fourth with them many rounds on while waiting. I felt it was their responsibility to make sure the user belonged to the credit card being used and should eat it. They said they would not.

I know there are lots of ways people can try and scam you but what I am referring to here is if you ship the item and can show proof the item was actually shipped then the buyer is out if the item is lost and does not arrive. Correct? This seems to be the question that is being danced around with Alertpay. Who eats it? The answer is one word "buyer" or "seller" not a long explanation of their requirements.

Yep noting makes your life easy and your customers happy than when they pay for an item and it shows up in a few days.:beer:

Really? I was on the phone with Paypal tons of times back and forth when I questioned them: if I send the product with tracking + sig confirm. And buyer chargesback non-receipt, what will happen? They say, they will cover my loss if I provide proof of shipment (tracking for <$250, or tracking + sig confirm for >$250) Multiple representatives and even one "specialist" had the same answer. I'll try to give them another call tomorrow and see what they say again.

I'm not even sure what will happen if the item is really lost (but the tracking says it arrived?). I don't know who will "eat it" but I'd like to believe if I did my part with tracking and delivery, I won't "eat it".

This is getting really confusing... lol.

daguin said:
This is the last time I'm going to go over this ground

You keep telling us how you would like us to act

It is NOT the market's job to adapt to you

The market gets NOTHING from you that we don't already have

What you "like" is about as irrelevant as it can be

It is YOUR job to adapt to the market

You are the one that stands to profit from that adaptation

This is how this market works

Adapt to it or suffer its slings and arrows (or move to a different market)

Peace,
dave

If you don't want to be nice, that's fine. But all I'm saying is I would love if you guys are, I would listen better and would appreciate it lots! That's all bud. After all, we are a community

No hard feelings <3

rpaloalto · May 5, 2012

RyanElectro said:
I would listen better <3

Waiting

op:

Seeking Advice from experinced Fourm sellers and buyers

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