New Boost Driver ????

Tech_Junkie said:

Woop's driver....

http://laserpointerforums.com/f42/2xaa-blue-ray-driver-fits-aixis-26662.html

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Yep, this is the one that was copied.. This is the boost version.

Can you also find the very first ones we made even further back? I think i started that thread (the drivers are at the very end)... Those were buck/boost and could power both reds and blurays, but ended up being too big.

Phenol managed to make a buck/boost version (not posted) fit into AixiZ, but i cut mine down to a boost-only version, to make it fit a 13x9mm board.

Unfortunatelly this chip needs two coils or a double coupled SEPIC coil to do both (buck/boost).. But i like it, because it can be made very stable...

HIMNL9 said:

Thanks ..... anyway, was just curiosity.

I don't own any copyright, and the few times i published some schematics, it was for public use, so i'm not asking for copyright reasons.

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I would have told you anyway.. Besides, it's posted all over the forum, altho it was a while back..

I also posted my first 3410 plans (in the older thread) which demonstrate the basic functionality of the driver, but the later ones i kept to myself, even more so, after some people tricked me into revealing some plans of mine only to sell the designs a week or two later.

Most everyone can make a copy given good enough instructions, but in the end, they might end up not knowing what they did or why, never mind how it works.

And when it comes to laser diode drivers, where some diodes can cost as much as $250 you have to know what you're doing, if you want to sell drivers for them...
(Altho to be fair, the seller of the driver discussed here, once said he sent the driver to an engineer for testing on a scope. Hopefully he repeated the tests at the high currents used these days - on 8x diodes - or the spikes could exceed what his capacitors can handle...)

HIMNL9 said:

Just curious, if that was the same IC, to understand how he can have obtained the "8-9vdc" that is cited in the description, about diode needs, from an IC that in my tests never gave me more than 5,7V

But if it's not the same, the thing have a sense

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I think you misunderstood something, however it was also explained in a weird way (if you were thinking about the chip's output voltage, when reading 8-9V, the driver can go much higher than that).

What he wanted to say there (i guess) was, that for DRIVING 405nm diodes you need 8-9V into a LINEAR driver (actually you need 8-9V OR MORE)..

But of course it was said in the same sentence where he mentioned 5V which is where the Vf of these diodes starts.. So it's a really confusing statement, which doesn't really make much sense....

But that's what happens when people with little or no clue about electronics make "their own" drivers and start selling them...


If you can't impress people with knowledge (or at least facts / specs in this case), sometimes you can still confuse them into awe...

IgorT said:

I think you misunderstood something, however it was also explained in a weird way. .....

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LOL, you're right.

I just read that ebay page on-the-fly, and got the (wrong, my fault) idea that he was speaking about ihs driver, capable to give 8 or 9 V ..... seen it with more attention, now, and yes, he just say that the diode require 8 or 9 V (also this wrong, imho), then say "Our driver can meet these same power requirements and all from a single 3.6v lithium AAA sized cell", but in all the page, there is no tech specs clearly stated about the driver itself, or at least i've not found them.

BTW, the 3410 can go higher, yes, but when i posted that, i was still thinking about the AS1329 .....

I made some confusion, as my usual, perhaps ..... sorry

IgorT said:

Can you also find the very first ones we made even further back? I think i started that thread (the drivers are at the very end)... Those were buck/boost and could power both reds and blurays, but ended up being too big.

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I think its this, but the photos are gone...

http://laserpointerforums.com/f42/using-dc-dc-converter-power-laser-26685-19.html

If you can't impress people with knowledge (or at least facts / specs in this case), sometimes you can still confuse them into awe...

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Like our current president...

Personally I think it is a bad way to do business, because in the end you'll end up with a lot more unhappy customers ...and citizens

Tech_Junkie said:

I cant believe someone paid $699 for that crap laser. He used a comic font and the web formatting was off on the eBay page. :thinking:

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Remember a while back, when the PHRs just came out and we did not yet know they could be set ridiculously high for a short time, and a guy calling himself MP-Mitch (or something like that) was offering a 250mW laser made from a futuristic 250mW CW diode a FOAF got him out of Sharp?

That laser also sold for $600 or so, and lasted 10 minutes... The poor buyer later found LPF and GooeyGus replaced the PHR for him...


Maybe that's where the idea came from.. But seriously, for $700 he could at least put an 8x diode inside! Altho then he would only make $500 profit.. :undecided:

What a waste of the other side of the board, he could've made it much smaller.

IgorT said:

That laser also sold for $600 or so, and lasted 10 minutes... The poor buyer later found LPF and GooeyGus replaced the PHR for him...


Maybe that's where the idea came from.. But seriously, for $700 he could at least put an 8x diode inside! Altho then he would only make $500 profit.. :undecided:

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Sounds like Dark (Tyler)...

Don't get me wrong.... I wasn't trying to start a Flame war
against the eBay Seller..
All I wanted to know was if someone actually tried one of these
drivers I saw on eBay and if they worked as described..:thinking:

Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture...

But as I posted once before about the DDL Current Driver...
when someone said a member STOLE the design from DDL..
DDL does not own that circuit... it was the National Design
engineer way back in 1975 that owns that circuit...IIRC.

It still seems that the consensus is that if something is posted
here on LPF then that is the person that the design is owned by...
And anyone else seems to be considered a thief...

The problem is Prior Art... just like the DDL circuit... Woop's circuit
is almost exactly identical to the National Design Engineer's Appnotes
Examples #4 and #7...
Does that mean Igor and Woop stole the design from National's
Engineer???

I think not....

National is in the business of selling their products and they supply
Application notes to anyone that wishes to use their products in
hopes they will choose that product...
So anyone can "copy" their App Note designs... just like Woop did..

Here's the LM3410 Data Sheet....

http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/226461/NSC/LM3410.html


Just my

BTW... I still don't know if someone actually tested one of these...


Jerry

IgorT said:

I wanted to comment on the strange way the driver's "specs" are posted (or rather NOT posted):
- No input voltage range (min, max?)
- No output voltage range (again, min, max?!?)
- No max current declared (at which current will the boost IC melt it's own solder joints and start floating around on them?!? And no this is not a joke).
- Does it have reverse polarity protection? (no...)
- Does it have no load operation protection (guess..)

"is the only driver of its kind" and "it provides a clean output to the laser, with absolutely no spikes or ripple. While providing specs that absolutely cannot be matched by any other 405nm driver.".... (Wait specs? Where?!? I must have missed them!)

P.P.S. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with theses drivers. But they were not developed and tested by the seller over the past year!

And they can't go over 400-500mA, even if the 500mA Schottky was replaced with a bigger one, because as i mentioned before, this package of the chip can not dissipate enough heat, and would burn up or melt it's own solder, even if heatsinks were attached to it....

I guess it's the exaggeration and lies with which the drivers (and other things) are sold, that annoy me...

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I think the price, misleading wording, and almost non existent specs were the main concern.

Has anyone contacted the Seller for additional specs...:thinking:

Jerry

lasersbee said:

..... when someone said a member STOLE the design from DDL..
DDL does not own that circuit... it was the National Design
engineer way back in 1975 that owns that circuit...IIRC......

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@ lasersbee: LOL, that is exactly the reason for which i always post all my schemes for public use, for anyone want to use them ..... there's no way for claim that someone own the paternity and rights for a specific scheme (except maybe when you invent something totally new, and that is difficult ..... and also when you really invent something new, there's always someone that claim they was the first ones, as already happened )

Almost 90% of my schemes comes from application notes, with maybe some modifications, and application notes / datasheets are always published for public use, so what sense can have, to publish a scheme based on their ones and claim to have "invented" them ?

The more classic example, imho, is the linear driver based on the 317 / 1117 ..... there's only one way for make it work as current regulator, so, none invented it (except, maybe, the inventor of the IC ) ..... i can "invent" a PCB, maybe, but not sure the schematic itself ..... and, same, in different forums, i seen "battles" about who "invented" it, in the past .....

I also don't have intention to offend anyone, but really, all the times i see those "battles", i'm always templed to reply with a gigantic "ROTFL" ..... :wtf:

lasersbee said:

It still seems that the consensus is that if something is posted
here on LPF then that is the person that the design is owned by...
And anyone else seems to be considered a thief...

Click to expand...

Not necessarily a thief, but a liar, if he says he "developed and tested the circuit over the past year" by himself, when the first driver he sold on ebay was a direct copy of Woop's PCB, and the new one a slight modification...

lasersbee said:

The problem is Prior Art... just like the DDL circuit... Woop's circuit
is almost exactly identical to the National Design Engineer's Appnotes
Examples #4 and #7...
Does that mean Igor and Woop stole the design from National's
Engineer???

So anyone can "copy" their App Note designs... just like Woop did..

Click to expand...

You misunderstood. Yes, Woop did use a schematic out of the datasheet, but he drew his own board to accomodate the parts... Later he designed his own circuits, with more components, and capabitilies - circuits that are not in the datasheet. Some of them are posted in that thread...

I also drew my own board based on the datasheet cct. first and later made a new, different circuit to suit my needs, after testing the one from the datasheet and deciding that while it's good enough for LEDs (which it is meant for), LDs have special requirements...

For example, after making the circuit from the datasheet, i spent a week behind a scope, testing it under every possible and impossible operating condition, to see if there is anything that could go wrong.
I found severe noise on the input and the output of the datasheet circuit, so i made several new circuits with different parts and part placements (position of components matters a lot in such high freq. ccts.)...
I ended up using one of my modified versions, with quite a few parts more, and a slightly more complex circuit (altho i always try to keep circuits simple, because the simpler they are, the harder it is for something to go wrong)....



What i said (or was trying to say) was, that the seller copied not Woop's schematic - because like you said that particular schematic is from the datasheet and not Woop - i said that the seller copied Woop's implementation of that schematic. The PCB layout...

Why? Cos he didn't know how to convert a schematic into a PCB by himself... And then he went on to lie he developed it himself (and that it's the best driver ever, with zero ripple and other fantastic but unspecific claims). Also, he lied to me about his intended use for the driver, while asking for help while making it...


I don't have a problem with the fact that Woop's PCB was copied, or let's say used...
Woop posted it in a public place, which usually gives everyone the right to use it...
The part that does bother me are the lies and exagerations used to sell it (and most of the sellers other offers).
For example, the part about the driver having specs that exceed any other driver known to mankind, while the same exact driver is posted right here for anyone to use...

There is nothing wrong with using a circuit or PCB someone else came up with and posted. But in that case it usually doesn't hurt to give credit.
If not that, the lies about the developement could still have been omitted, without it affecting sales in any way. So could the lies about how perfect and wonderful it is, if specs were simply provided instead...



Otherwise, seeing how the components on the circuit were moved around by a few milimeters, the chip rotated and replaced with a version with legs (easier to solder, but inferior in power dissipation capabilities), i'm guessing the seller at least learned how to use a PCB drawing software over the course of the last year.

That's something too, i guess.

lasersbee said:

Has anyone contacted the Seller for additional specs...:thinking:

Jerry

Click to expand...

I doubt it. Well, the buyers maybe, or maybe they get instructions with the driver, but the majority are not LPF members, as far as i heard in the past.. Not sure.


But if you are actually interested in the specs, here they are:


Input Voltage Range:
- 2.2 - 2.4V MIN (depending on how well the input side is filtered)
- 4.5V MAX (HAS to be LESS than the diode Vf in ALL cases, since it's a boost cct. only! If the input voltage goes above the diode's Vf, the diode will be fed the voltage directly - as if it was directly connected to the power source!)

Output Voltage Limit:
In theory the chip can go as far as 25V at low currents, but the two output capacitors used are usually rated for 10 or 16V, which then determines the upper limit.. The chip could still boost higher, but the caps would blow. For safety, i'd assume 10V caps were used, and not use the driver to boost higher than that, so:
- 10V MAX (guesstimated for safety reasons in case the lowest rated of the two output caps is 10V)...

Output Current Limit:
- At 405nm Vf's = ~300-350mA MAX (maybe more if a heatsink was glued on top of the chip... It might be capable of going higher, but could become unreliable from overheating. The lower current limit is the result of the chip package used... I could be wrong about the max current limit, as i never tested this package, but i have to err on the side of caution here.. IF i am wrong however, and the package can somehow dissipate as much heat as the leg-less one, the driver's max output current would be 500mA, because that is the rating of the Schottky diode used on it..)

Stability:
- Probably less than 0.5mA current drift over the input voltage range. Maybe as little as 0.3mA (it's a stable chip, if the cct is kept simple and proper filter caps are used in the right places)...

Output Ripple:
- God only knows, but declared as 0mV peak-to-peak.. (".... no ripple or spikes....." according to description) :angel:

Input Polarity protection:
- None (recommended you add your own, driver dies instantly if polarity is reversed)

No Load Operation protection:
- None (NEVER power the driver without a load even momentarily, the chip will boost to 27V and kill itself in a single second!)

Cap-Zap Protection:
- None (observe the usual precautions)

Hey Igor...
Like I said... I opened this Thread because I saw a new Driver on eBay...
not to start a flame war....
It seems that you have an issue with that seller and I would rather not get involved...

Thanks for the above data...
I assume those are figures from your driver...
Do you sell your drivers outright... I would prefer getting one or two from you...

Let me know the costs... You can PM me with details...

Jerry

IgorT said:

I doubt it. Well, the buyers maybe, or maybe they get instructions with the driver, but the majority are not LPF members, as far as i heard in the past.. Not sure.


But if you are actually interested in the specs, here they are:


Input Voltage Range:
- 2.2 - 2.4V MIN (depending on how well the input side is filtered)
- 4.5V MAX (HAS to be LESS than the diode Vf in ALL cases, since it's a boost cct. only! If the input voltage goes above the diode's Vf, the diode will be fed the voltage directly - as if it was directly connected to the power source!)

Output Voltage Limit:
In theory the chip can go as far as 25V at low currents, but the two output capacitors used are usually rated for 10 or 16V, which then determines the upper limit.. The chip could still boost higher, but the caps would blow. For safety, i'd assume 10V caps were used, and not use the driver to boost higher than that, so:
- 10V MAX (guesstimated for safety reasons in case the lowest rated of the two output caps is 10V)...

Output Current Limit:
- At 405nm Vf's = ~300-350mA MAX (maybe more if a heatsink was glued on top of the chip... It might be capable of going higher, but could become unreliable from overheating. The lower current limit is the result of the chip package used... I could be wrong about the max current limit, as i never tested this package, but i have to err on the side of caution here.. IF i am wrong however, and the package can somehow dissipate as much heat as the leg-less one, the driver's max output current would be 500mA, because that is the rating of the Schottky diode used on it..)

Stability:
- Probably less than 0.5mA current drift over the input voltage range. Maybe as little as 0.3mA (it's a stable chip, if the cct is kept simple and proper filter caps are used in the right places)...

Click to expand...

Hey Igor,

I need me a driver with those kind of specs. Specifically, the driver with the ability to boost to 16V (or more?) from a 3V source. I assume those are very similar specs to what your driver does?

And what kind of current levels can I get with that? Like what load current when boosting 3V to 15V, and what load current when boosting 3V to 10V?

Thanks a ton, if I can buy a driver from you that can boost like that, it would make my life so much better.

And I promise, it'll make for a really cool project or 2 to post on here :eg:.