12x Murder Experiment - Take 2 (With 12x Comparison Plots)

He didn't specify distances. :na:

qumefox said:

Not sure how you figure that. 1W of 445 is going to heat stuff faster than 600mw of 405. 40nm isn't enough difference in wavelength for better material absorption of a smaller wavelength to overcome the 400mw higher power.

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I wouldnt be so sure about that , Bluray seems to burn white objects better than 445 blue.

Well. I have both types of diodes on their way to me atm, so I guess i'll find out first hand when they get built.

Welcome back, Igor.
Relevant to the burning power, I have never seen a 12x firing a piece of a magazine page as I have just seen in some movies of the Forum members. But I think this is simply due to the 445 higher Power Output and the wider beam

Maybe Exerd and/or yobresal can inform us if they were/are able to put fire on an untreated piece of paper/or a magazine page, as they are the owners of the most powerful 12x.

Edit: ...for what I know from my datasheets...

I forgot to mention a couple of things in the final report...

From the beginning, i kinda expected the diode to fall somewhere in between the two 8x lifetimes, partially from the (failed - due to the burn-in effect changing the conditions) initial degradation rate comparisons but mostly from a gut feeling.

But i thought it would land between 300-400h.
While that would have been a better result, it would also mean i tested the diode at too low a power.

There were some initial wishes or ideal expected results, which would be anything close to or above 100h of life. In other words the ideal result (IMHO) would be finding the maximum power, where the diode would survive appoximatelly as long.
Problem is, you have to feel your way up there if there are not many diodes of similar efficiency available to kill at many different powers in the search of this elusive "sweet-spot"...

Here the sweet-spot was "missed" somewhat, as the diode went further than that, since i was afraid of going higher than 600mW (mostly due to the first two diodes dying (or going zombie) at much lower powers).

But that's not all bad, as it means you can actually set a (good) 12x even higher.
650mW should still be "safe", possibly even 700mW. Some people went even higher than that IIRC (i believe i heard of a 780mW 12x a while back). Since that's too far above the power tested here it's impossible to speculate how "safe" or unsafe it is, but it is theoretically possible it would still give some ~20h or so, which should keep the average user happy for at least a year (if true - just an example, no guarantee).


Otherwise the last re-plot of 12x #3 happened at 260h after which i was gonna spread the re-plots even further appart, so it wasn't until over a week later that i noticed the counter didn't go up much during that time (the cycler kept pounding at it, but the diode stopped lasing and didn't trigger the sensor anymore).


P.S. I'm sorry it took me so long to finish this one, but i've been in and out of a hospital from the beginning of this year (mostly for one and the same thing) and it was simply impossible for me to test as regularly as i would have liked.

FrancoRob said:

Maybe Exerd and/or yobresal can inform us if they were/are able to put fire on an untreated piece of paper/or a magazine page, as they are the owners of the most powerful 12x.

Edit: ...for what I know from my datasheets...

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From personal experience, 370mw of 405 nm (8x) is a significantly better burner than 570mw of 445. The shorter wavelength of the 405 may have something to do with it (more absorption?) but I am pretty sure the main reason is the rectangular output from the 445 which does not focus as well, whereas the 405 makes a focused spot that is almost too small to see. Divergence with the 405 is also better, so I think this would be true at any distance, though I have only tested at short range. So for example, the 405 can burn (though not set fire to) white paper, which the 445 has trouble with. I would expect 500mw+ of 12x to be an awesome burner, and likely to be superior to even a near 1 watt 445.

BTW, welcome back Igor!

IgorT:
thank you for your excellent work (I'm happy to see that my "honest" 8x will last for more than 200 h:beer! Concerning to the max O.P. of a 12x, I have recorded on my datasheet an astonishing 850mW of the yobresal 3; for what I know it's still living, also if I haven't received any updated burning time from the first info, dated 8 ofJune. BTW, I think that these results give a big "breath" of satisfaction to all 12x -600mW owners....

davidgdg:
well, being a simple owner of a (beautiful IgorT) 8x with a 413mW O.P., but still missing any 445 beauty (I hope not for a long time :bowdown, I cannot perform any comparison (are you a happy owner of a 445 ? I have not seen your name in the Grix list.....:na.
But I have carefully read the more than excellent (as usual) review written by Traveller: JayGuin 445nm "Razor Lasor" Review, and also the really interesting "445nm A130 Lens Comparison" written by JayRob.

I'm a little bit confused by the differences between the 405-G-1 and the Aixiz 405 glass lens: in the Traveller review, some of his pictures show clearly the "rectangular dot" (15 x 1 mm) at a distance of 10', but their title refer to the 405-G-1 lens.
On the other site, the pictures included in the JayRob comparison (taken at a distance of 7'), show a great difference in the "dot shape", clearly in favour of the Aixiz glass lens. Let me say that the "Aixiz" dot looks quite round or at minimum greatly shorter than that of the 405-G-1.

No doubt that the 445nm beam is larger than the 405nm, the holes in the Traveller picture relevant to the CD case speak for themselves, also if (as I think) the 445nm holes were obtained with the 405-G-1 lens; so I still need to see a clear comparison between a 405nm diode equipped with a 405-G-1 lens and a 445nm diode equipped with the 405 Aixiz glass lens.....

Concerning the burning capability, I have seen two astonishing movies on YouTube, made by yobresal, burning a page of a magazine and a leaf: what impressed me was the really short time required to start the flames, taking into account that the tests have been carried out in the open air.

FrancoRob said:

IgorT:
....
davidgdg:
well, being a simple owner of a (beautiful IgorT) 8x with a 413mW O.P., but still missing any 445 beauty (I hope not for a long time :bowdown, I cannot perform any comparison (are you a happy owner of a 445 ? I have not seen your name in the Grix list.....:na.....

Concerning the burning capability, I have seen two astonishing movies on YouTube, made by yobresal, burning a page of a magazine and a leaf: what impressed me was the really short time required to start the flames, taking into account that the tests have been carried out in the open air.

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Hi Franco

Yes as per my sig, I own a 445 Daguin custom built and also a Kryton 405 8x (also Daguin built). I have posted reviews for both lasers in the review section.

I'll check out the videos. Are they 405 or 445?

David

davidgdg said:

Hi Franco

Yes as per my sig, I own a 445 Daguin custom built and also a Kryton 405 8x (also Daguin built). I have posted reviews for both lasers in the review section.

I'll check out the videos. Are they 405 or 445?

David

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Yes, yes, I know (I was just joking ): your is one of the rare reviews written in pale yellow characters....
The videos are relevant to the yobresal 445nm - 1W toy!

Traveller said:

Welcome back...
Looking at FrancoRob's 12X table, it would seem that roughly 50% of the participants managed 600mW+ so your assumption appears to hold true. This also means that at least 50% are efficient diodes, no?

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Thanks!

As for the percentage... I tested only five 12x's personally.

Three out of five were exceptionally good diodes with a slightly varying slope efficiency but identical absolute efficiency.

From the other two, one was slightly below average, the other had an efficiency lower than many 8x's! Both died quite rapidly even tho they were not tortured nearly as hard as #3 (the really good one).

5 diodes is a small sample and can't provide anything close to relevant statistical data. But i hope the ratio of good diodes is better than 50%... Mostly because the really low efficiency diode behaved so differently from all the others, it made me think there was something wrong with it, for a while i even thought it was a low efficiency 8x (due to high Ith and low slope efficiency)....


In any case the idea of buying more 12x diodes is still scarier to me than buying 8x's, where the two lowest efficiency diodes delivered exceptional results.


But now that we know how much efficiency matters for diode toughness, there is also another question i can't get out of my head...
Where do high efficiency 8x's fit in? Many good 8x's have a higher efficiency than some 12x's but not as high as the really good 12x's.

I can't help but wonder what would happen if a high efficiency 8x was tested side by side with an equal efficiency 12x. I suspect the results would actually be very close together... In fact i'm almost certain that good 8x's can beat a weak 12x any time...

Their PI plots form groups and while the 8x group is lower on average than a 12x group they do overlap for a big part of the efficiency spectrum...

In fact, if it wasn't for the dramatically different Ith, i'd think that 12x's are just cherry-picked 8x's...

FrancoRob said:

IgorT:
thank you for your excellent work (I'm happy to see that my "honest" 8x will last for more than 200 h:beer! Concerning to the max O.P. of a 12x, I have recorded on my datasheet an astonishing 850mW of the yobresal 3; for what I know it's still living, also if I haven't received any updated burning time from the first info, dated 8 ofJune. BTW, I think that these results give a big "breath" of satisfaction to all 12x -600mW owners....

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I believe your 8x will live much longer than that.

While i ended up testing the best case scenario here after the two low efficiency diodes died, my 8x Murder Experiment tested the worst-case-scenario.

Since the 12x experiment confirmed that high efficiency diodes can survive higher powers longer than low efficiency ones can survive lower powers, i believe your 8x laser will last a very long time indeed, because you got lucky with the efficiency of your 8x diode!

And that even if it was set higher, like 500mW for example. (If you're tempted let me know). :evil:

I am definitelly considering setting my personal 8x to just a fraction over 500mW after my "medium" lens...


850mW! In that case my estimate for 750mW might not be too far off...

FrancoRob said:

I'm a little bit confused by the differences between the 405-G-1 and the Aixiz 405 glass lens: in the Traveller review, some of his pictures show clearly the "rectangular dot" (15 x 1 mm) at a distance of 10', but their title refer to the 405-G-1 lens.
On the other site, the pictures included in the JayRob comparison (taken at a distance of 7'), show a great difference in the "dot shape", clearly in favour of the Aixiz glass lens. Let me say that the "Aixiz" dot looks quite round or at minimum greatly shorter than that of the 405-G-1.

No doubt that the 445nm beam is larger than the 405nm, the holes in the Traveller picture relevant to the CD case speak for themselves, also if (as I think) the 445nm holes were obtained with the 405-G-1 lens; so I still need to see a clear comparison between a 405nm diode equipped with a 405-G-1 lens and a 445nm diode equipped with the 405 Aixiz glass lens.....

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I recently got an Aixiz 445 lens from JayRob and hopefully, will be able to take comparative shots over the weekend.

I call my 445nm laser "razor lazor" because at close distances, the 445nm (+ 405-G-1 lens) will focus down to a razor-thin bar. It will literally burn a SLIT in a piece of electrical tape, etc. It's as if you had lined up half a dozen 405nm lasers, lol.

The main problem is the divergence. Once you get far enough from your target, the bar ("spot") is too thick to really burn anything... . I'd estimate 1M is the max range for "optimal" burning.

Traveller said:

I recently got an Aixiz 445 lens from JayRob and hopefully, will be able to take comparative shots over the weekend.

I call my 445nm laser "razor lazor" because at close distances, the 445nm (+ 405-G-1 lens) will focus down to a razor-thin bar. It will literally burn a SLIT in a piece of electrical tape, etc. It's as if you had lined up half a dozen 405nm lasers, lol.

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I know what you mean by the razor-thin bar, but there is a way to focus the 445nm MM diodes into almost pin-point, however only at one very specific (short) distance...


Basically, if you're in "parallel" focus and have a spreading beam that ends in a somewhat circular large dot and you then unscrew the lens just enough that you again get a somewhat circular large dot, the beam converges first and then diverges and at the crossing you have all that power concentrated in one tiny spot.

It is much easier to see what i'm talking about with smoke. But it can be done and not just with the "razor projection"...


Oh and it burns like hell, but why do i think we're in the wrong thread for some reason? :thinking:

Welcome back Igor! I'm suspecting that a maxed out freak 12X, will burn faster and better, than the average 445nm at >1 watt. I'm sure we will see some interesting research from you on this comparison. ;-)